Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

sfgate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 215 posts

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#131

Post by safgasCVS »

RickS wrote: post #111
safgasCVS wrote: post #108

Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your employees properly

A number of restaurants have tried this, and more broadly, JCP tried something of the same sort (charge the "real" price, do away with the manipulative abstractions). You start hemorrhaging customers. People's baselines for how much food costs are old and calcified, and customers flat out can't be counted on to act rationally and in their economic self interest. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-markin…

I'm aware of this research - it's a culture shift but it's not an immutable law of gravity. You need customers to start demanding this - it won't happen top down with restaurants.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#132

Post by cameronh90 »

CoreDumpling wrote: post #126
RickS wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the sense of obligation on the tippers' side. The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics. Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately req…

Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.

While I fully support taxing the crap out of cars, Singapore and the USA are hardly comparable. It's the third most densely populated country on earth, and you can walk the circumference of the entire island in about a day. Not even factoring in the comprehensive public transit..

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#133

Post by EliRivers »

exacube wrote: post #14
blacksqr wrote: post #8

It seems to me that tipping has evolved from an incentive and reward for good service to a form of voluntary workfare where those who have something to spare decide to share with those still struggling in the low end of the service economy.

yes! tipping is like a naturally occuring form of redistrbution of wealth in capitalist countries :) I personally view the evolution of tipping culture as positive on the whole. and also, I think people tend to tip a bit higher if they feel good about the service, so it still incentivizes good service. When I visit Europe, I am reminded how nice the service industry in America is.

incentivizes good service

I understand it actually incentivizes being an attractive female who touches male diners.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#134

Post by tvh »

There needs to be a ban and removal of the tipping requirement altogether. I know, easier said than done. I'm just saying, many European countries do not have tips embedded in their culture, and that's a good thing. If I go to a sit-down restaurant, I'm already being marked up for that - before tipping. If I have some food delivered, I'm paying for the delivery service, or I am being marked up on the item's price - before tipping. By doing that, we ensure that the salaries of employees are legally decent (rather than them counting on unpredictable extras to make ends meet). This forces the employer not to direct all of the margin into his own pocket while squeezing the employee's salary.

I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already paying for in the first place. That's what tipping must be, not forcing the customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that tips will bridge the gap. If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price (relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on tips to make a decent living. The solution to low salaries is not tipping and guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better salaries framed by law or contract.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#135

Post by ljw1001 »

smallnamespace wrote: post #9

Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm . Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explic…

> Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm.

Yes, and that's ok when a tip is deserved, but apps that ask me to tip counter help are bullshit. Those people aren't paid less than kitchen workers because they're not expected to earn tips, and they don't do anything beyond the minimal expected work (fetching a donut, operating a cash-register).

As you suggest, the tip app is a way to get proprietors to invest in POS so they can substitute tips for wages.

No one makes out (again) except some silicon valley executive.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#136

Post by lotsofpulp »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #15

The tip calculator on these is surprisingly broken in obvious ways. For example, if you order a cup of coffee and merchandise or a bag of beans, it calculates 15% on the entire order. Wtf!

You don’t need to tip for coffee anyway, that’s what the charge for the coffee is for.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#137

Post by tvh »

ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

I like how you think. I especially think you're in the right with the opportunity for Californians to walk off the tip culture. This would set a great precedent to reproduce this on a national level, if done correctly.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#138

Post by javagram »

w00kie wrote: post #106
legohead wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair. Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.

Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment. What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.

The expectation of tipping at a restaurant exists to allow you to punish the employee for bad service over the course of a meal by leaving a 0% tip.

It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#139

Post by javagram »

snuxoll wrote: post #95
Rainymood wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my…

As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them. Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.

The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips.

As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#140

Post by jacques_chester »

d1zzy wrote: post #119
Cogito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture. Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry d…

Speaking about "unintended consequences", I would like to see a study if there's any correlation between heavy tipping culture and service quality. So far in my travels the US has been the place where waiters are the "nicest" while places with little tipping (but high menu pricing, ex. in Europe) I've had mixed service quality (but generally significantly worse than in the US).

The flipside is that I can't just sit and eat or drink in peace in the US.

I am either badgered because of a schedule ("how is everything?", inevitably mid-chew), or badgered to buy something ("another round?", "want to see the dessert menu?") or -- just as annoying -- totally invisible if I am judged as no longer having money-making potential.

"Good service" is relative. What I want is to make an order, enjoy myself, then leave, with a minimum of fuss. I need a waiter. I don't need a bestest buddy evar!!1! who dabbles in bringing me food and drinks as a hobby.

Post reply on HN