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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#101

Post by legohead »

AviationAtom wrote: post #51
smallnamespace wrote: post #9

Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm . Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explic…

I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair.

Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#102

Post by mFixman »

ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

The minimum wage in San Francisco is $15 per hour. That's including tipped work: if you don't make that amount from wages and tips you're supposed to be paid extra.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#103

Post by jjeaff »

dgzl wrote: post #90
stevenwoo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits depending upon position.

Hence the "let's pretend they get their full tip" statement. It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.

It is only split between the workers not managers or owners. And since they don't really do anything for your tip anyway, seems fine to split it amongst the workers.

As for taxes... Only if it's reported. If you tipped in cash, you can be fairly certain that it will not get reported.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#104

Post by jjeaff »

I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage.

20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service.

15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18.

I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal.

And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft.

We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it while all the cheapskates freeload.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#105

Post by jldugger »

scarejunba wrote: post #94
jldugger wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips. Most of the jobs you're talking about are not in the tipping wage category, and management just has to monitor carefully. Fast food has tons of computers to do exactly that, and even department stores have secret shoppers and cameras to observe staff. Grocery stores have crazy levels of cam…

In the context of the article (CA and SF in particular), there is no tipped minimum wage. If your wage is minimum you make minimum, and that minimum is higher than most. If you make tips, they go on top.

Interesting, I thought OR was the only state like that. Of course, 'round here minimum wage is like 15 bucks, going by the ads on the In'n'out.

Edit: how do you account for this page which indicates a (slightly) lower tipped wage in CA? https://www.minimum-wage.org/california/tipped-employee-mini...

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#106

Post by w00kie »

legohead wrote: post #101
AviationAtom wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair. Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.

Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment. What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#107

Post by Cogito »

ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture.

Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry doesn't mean that the only way to survive is to force workers to live off their tips. In so many cases it seems like tipping culture merely serves to hide the true cost of a meal or service.

Similarly, the odd practice of not including any taxes in the sticker price on goods. This one in particular feels anti-consumer, and seems to persist because sellers worry that their prices, if listed including taxes, would seem higher than the competition. I'm surprised more retailers don't buck this trend more often; realising that taxes were included in Cafe du Monde's list price for their coffee and biegnets made the experience even more enjoyable than it otherwise would have been, and definitely contributed to a few of the midnight treks I made to get that particular treat.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#108

Post by safgasCVS »

Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your employees properly

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#109

Post by RickS »

matthewowen wrote: post #100
dgzl wrote: post #79

I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law: "Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains t…

As a point of information: there is no reduced minimum wage for tipped workers in California. Wait staff etc must still receive full minimum wage in addition to any tips they receive.

I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the sense of obligation on the tippers' side.

The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics.

Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately require) a certain level of income, regardless of origin.

It's a little like subsidized gas. The US has been underpaying for gas for so long that I've got no idea what political martyr would try to put that cat in the bag. When a market distortion lasts so long it becomes part of the social fabric, it's real hard to just kill off.

I'd love to hear about times countries have been able to pull this off at scale.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#110

Post by mnm1 »

The employees who don't do anything yet think it's right to shame others into tipping them for nothing are the ones who should be ashamed. After accidentally tipping a few times for no reason, I have made it a priority to resist this bullshit. It's not my place as a customer to pay more for no reason just because most jobs in this country pay shit and I'm supposed to feel pity for the employees. Yeah the whole situation sucks and we should eliminate tipping altogether and have a livable minimum wage, but this is one way workers are not going to get sympathy. We can all fight for a proper minimum wage or they can nickel and dime the rest of us into not caring about their situation due to this kind of bullshit. I for one am going to specifically make sure not to tip wherever no service exists and whenever asked to before any service rendered, even if there will be a service rendered. I hope others have enough common sense and character to do the same.
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