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'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

sfgate.com

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Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#81

Post by onion2k »

ggm wrote: post #29

The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%. I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend o…

I suspect distributing the cost of the money a restaurant makes from tips across all the customers would lead to many restaurants closing.

A quick absurdist example - if a restaurant has 10 customers and 1 gives a $1000 tip, increasing all the bills by $100 instead would mean the 9 customers who didn't tip would likely stop eating there.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#82

Post by sfRattan »

hedora wrote: post #65

I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills before tip. How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount. It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the m…

I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of prices (and related to price discrimination).

To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."

To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare, the restaurant could afford to give you a better price. This is a right of center nudge toward action: "You're in favor of mandatory healthcare, and here is what it's costing you."

Both fees are crass, tone-deaf choices but, unless the receipt literally says, "we take this out of the tip," it isn't theft. You're irritated (reasonably) but are choosing to tip less, which seems like picking out the wrong party to punish for restaurant policy.

Tip well, and then tell the owner that you won't be eating there again because of the politically motivated fees.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#83

Post by oasisbob »

Camillo wrote: post #38
maym86 wrote: post #2

Guess what, you still don't have to tip if you don't want to. Your "guilt" is your problem, not a problem with the iPad. Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. It is entirely opt in. An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self awareness.

Look, if you want to pay them more, pay them more. I'm all for it. I just don't want each retail transaction to be turned into a labor negotiation! Tipping at restaurants is bad enough: why do I have to decide how much the waiter should make? If you make me think about it, 20% gross honestly seems way too much: the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stif…

> the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stiffing _them_!

There's a weird economy to tips - in many (most?) US restaurants, the kitchen and non-wait staff (hosts, bussers, barbacks) are tipped out at the end of each night by those who receive the tips.

A busy night at a healthy place where everyone is hustling can send everyone home happy.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#84

Post by theNextEpisode »

smelendez wrote: post #64
Rainymood wrote: post #55

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge,…

This is standard in the UK, it works fine.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#85

Post by lazyasciiart »

sfRattan wrote: post #82
hedora wrote: post #65

I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills before tip. How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount. It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the m…

I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of prices (and related to price discrimination). To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage." To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare,…

> To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."

No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk signal: "I would charge you less and screw my employees harder but the law won't allow me".

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#86

Post by amazingman »

AviationAtom wrote: post #51
smallnamespace wrote: post #9

Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm . Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explic…

I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#87

Post by stevenwoo »

dgzl wrote: post #74

I had thought of something profound today: Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out. Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes…

The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits depending upon position.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#88

Post by sfRattan »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #85
sfRattan wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of prices (and related to price discrimination). To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage." To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare,…

> To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage." No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk signal: "I would charge you less and screw my em…

Well, then they're both right-of-center bird flips...

My point remains the same: anyone is right to get pissed of about these fees, but tipping less punishes the server and not the owner who instituted the fees. A better solution is to tip normally, ask to speak to the owner (or a manager), explain you will not be patronizing the business again (and why), and then leave.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#89

Post by duxup »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #40
duxup wrote: post #13

Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0. I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed... I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.

It seems strange to ask for a tip before the service has been rendered, if the tip is an incentive for good service.

It is strange. Tip them because they bothered .... I've not even seen my food yet...

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#90

Post by dgzl »

stevenwoo wrote: post #87
dgzl wrote: post #74

I had thought of something profound today: Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out. Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes…

The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits depending upon position.

Hence the "let's pretend they get their full tip" statement.

It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.

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