Live data from Hacker News

'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

sfgate.com

51–60 of 215 posts

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#51

Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm . Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explic…

I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#52
When I was last in the US I noticed that restaurants generally seemed to charge similar amounts to my expensive city (Sydney) but that was before the tip. So is it a lot more profitable to run a restaurant in the US because you essentially offload the labour cost from the meal to the tip but can keep the meal a similar price?

Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer to potentially mislead diners?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your guilt is your problem I'm sorry, who are you?

In this scenario, especially in SF as a tech worker, you should feel guilty if you can afford to spare a dollar for someone on minimum wage for a tip but are reaching for the zero button. Having the iPad highlight your stingyness is not a problem with the technology.

I dunno I am in the exact category you describe but don’t feel obligated to. It is messed up to even have the new tipping system where you have to shamefully press “no tip”. I just paid $10 to get a sandwich in a paper box from a food truck, and you want a 20% tip for handing it out the window?

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#54
post #48

I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not others: * Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them? * Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them? * Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them? *…

You can tip whomever you want; that’s pretty much how it starts anyway.

That's not really true, though! Some stores have policies against tipping, and it can be awkward if you try to tip someone who's not allowed to accept it.

Coat/bag check workers are a good example: most concert halls seem to encourage you to tip maybe $1 when you get your coat back, but a lot of museum coat check workers will refuse to accept a tip and may get flustered if you offer one.

I've never seen anyone try to tip in McDonald's or Old Navy, but I don't think you'd be doing anyone any favors if you tried. The cashier would probably be more worried about getting in trouble for handling the situation wrong than grateful.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#55
I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#56

I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not others: * Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them? * Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them? * Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them? *…

FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips. Most of the jobs you're talking about are not in the tipping wage category, and management just has to monitor carefully. Fast food has tons of computers to do exactly that, and even department stores have secret shoppers and cameras to observe staff. Grocery stores have crazy levels of cameras to monitor staff; I'd say about 70 percent of the cameras are pointed at the cashier (the remainder at you as you wander the store to calculate dwell time and deter theft). Trash collection I don't even know the company behind it let alone ever seen the driver. I assume they have GPS and cameras now that communities have moved to those machine arm trucks.

Tipping is a sort of economic hack; you the customer are responsible for evaluating service, and punishing inept or even just lazy service. You're the final buyer of the service, so in a way it's fair; just atypically lassiez-faire method versus the usual social hierarchy of companies paying managers to supervise service workers.

I figure if tipping dies, it will be because there's a separate economic hack undermining it. When you live somewhere where restaurants start and fail every month, the cost of a bad tipper reputation is pretty low. And if you adopt an upfront tip model to combat this, you're people's losing good faith as the fee-for-service model no longer applies -- which this article directly discusses.

All of which puts us in the awkward position of trying to figure out whether the lunch spot we visit is paying its staff a tipped wage without any actual service -- no bussing, no setting, and just a beeper to let you know you should grab your food.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#57
post #43

Related: > A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...

It definitely makes a difference for me. Now that I use the app, I have a default tip percentage that I no longer think about. It was a lot harder to mentally justify tipping when I had to do the math in my head.

Completely irrational, but real.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to feel the same, but then I started to appreciate just how fortunate I am to not have to work in retail. This isn’t because I’m better. It’s just because I was born into the right situation. I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away at any time.

I don't think retail is a bad job. I would hate to be stuck at a computer all day writing code and dealing with non-technical managers and clients. Someone who works a job where they receive consistent tips can make a lot of money, and if it's in cash it's tax free. Plus the tips never go to the kitchen who do all the actual work.

> and if it's in cash it's tax free.

Obligatory nit: Being paid in cash is not exempt from regular income tax.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#59
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is wether the workers are being paid the tipped or no tips minimum wage. The former being much less than the later in much of the US

I'm in CA so don't encounter this issue. Is it common in other states for workers in an establishment where you order at a counter and pick up your food from a counter to be paid a tipped minimum wage? I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?

> I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?

Employers are required to do that.

However, as is most often the case at the low end of the job ladder, enforcing your employment rights against your employer is a very efficient way to find yourself unemployed and--in smaller communities where "people are gonna talk"--blackballed from ever holding a job again.

Re: 'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF

#60
These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with negative feelings.
Post reply on HN