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What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

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Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#91

Post by fspeech »

tsuabing wrote: post #71
graeme wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

Taiwan may be small economically, but we are still important strategically to the western world's alliance against China. The island act as a unsinkable carrier. You have your facts wrong. Chinese GDP is fake and growth is declining every year. I have many Taiwanese manufacturer friends that sees the declining Chinese sales, exploding debts, and rising wages, and have moved most of their factories out of China. Meanw…

> but we are still important strategically to the western world's alliance against China. The island act as a unsinkable carrier.

Don't you see that would be same argument why China would want Taiwan back?

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#92

Post by indemnity »

graeme wrote: post #41
tsuabing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

The world does not agree, but pretends to agree, so they can trade with China.

But the reality is Taiwan is an independent country, and is not part of China, no matter how much the PRC would wish it otherwise.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#93

Post by amaccuish »

perl4ever wrote: post #38
amaccuish wrote: post #12

> There is an ongoing discussion about China weaponizing tourism And America tried the same tatic with Cuba and many other countries. It's an effective tatic. China isn't doing anything new that hasn't been done before.

It's reasonable to note that it's a much smaller offense in this case than with Cuba, regardless of what one may think of the merits. There's a difference between holding a grudge over acts like expropriation and revolution and trying to enforce correct speaking and writing by everyone. The latter seems hypersensitive and quixotic. It would be silly if the US cut off travel to Canada because they recognized the exist…

> It would be silly if the US cut off travel to Canada because they recognized the existence of the new government of Cuba.

The US is quite happy right now to punish countries trading with Iran.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#94

Post by mistermann »

ericjang wrote: post #2

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

> Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change?

Voting with your wallet or voicing your concerns seem fairly futile to me.

What I believe could make a difference is trying to educate people on what the honest (non-partisan) reality of the situation is, to the best of your ability. When you encounter someone online stating something that is untrue (flat out wrong, generalized to the point of important detail being missed, mischaracterization of news or literature), speak up with a more accurate representation of the truth. The goal of this is not to change the mind of the person who has written something untrue (although that's a nice side benefit in the rare case it happens), it is for the hundreds/thousands of other readers who subconsciously form opinions based on the entirety of information they consume, so they they at least have a chance of hearing lesser-biased versions of reality.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#95

Post by amaccuish »

tomohawk wrote: post #44
amaccuish wrote: post #12

> There is an ongoing discussion about China weaponizing tourism And America tried the same tatic with Cuba and many other countries. It's an effective tatic. China isn't doing anything new that hasn't been done before.

Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation. It still illegally holds these properties today. The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at the US. This almost caused a nuclear war. The US embargo was based on these and many other things. It is hardly a comparable situation.

> Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation.

That's not anyone else's business. Countries should be free to a certain extent to act as they wish. It's not for America to decide what political system another country should have.

>The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles...

I think you skipped a key part of history usually referred to as "Bay of Pigs Invasion"...

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#96

Post by paulie_a »

imbokodo wrote: post #74
sonnyblarney wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. A) Cuba w/Soviets pointed nuclear missiles at the US. Iran's government perpetually declares they want to destroy the US. that's a tad offside compared to 'listing Taiwan as a country'. B) The US very very rarely controls where it's citizens can go. The moral/relative arguments used by the pro/defend China camp are tiring.

Cuba pointed missiles at the US because the US was openly gearing up for one of its many invasions of Cuba, shortly after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. The Soviets put nukes there because the US put nuclear missiles into Turkey. The US government has declared they want to destroy the US. It has been the US interfering in Iran, not vice versa. The US banned Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling from leaving the US, only…

You don't need a license to travel Amtrak. In many cases you don't even need a ticket when boarding the train. I routinely buy mine after it has left the station.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#97

Post by imbokodo »

tomohawk wrote: post #44
amaccuish wrote: post #12

> There is an ongoing discussion about China weaponizing tourism And America tried the same tatic with Cuba and many other countries. It's an effective tatic. China isn't doing anything new that hasn't been done before.

Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation. It still illegally holds these properties today. The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at the US. This almost caused a nuclear war. The US embargo was based on these and many other things. It is hardly a comparable situation.

The US invaded and seized Guantanamo Bay in 1898. What was the cause for that?

It's a standard American imperial idea. The US seizure and continual occupation of Guantanamo Bay is "legal". Cubans reclaiming what Americans stole in other parts of Cuba is "illegal".

It's quite a joke. The US invading and seizing sugar plantations from 1898 to 1959 is legal, the American thieves being driven out is "illegal" and "without any compensation".

This sort of imperial hubris is why Arabian patriots have been flying planes into the Pentagon.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#98

Post by NeedMoreTea »

skh wrote: post #83
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back further and Taiwan was under Japanese occupation and the People's Republic of China didn't yet exist. So if the short timescale discounts Taiwan shouldn't it also discount China?

I think the point is there are different perspectives that have some merit to them. Both sides have compelling points. But one thing is clear, the PRC have always considered Taiwan part of the China and currently they will not countenance a different view on the matter. Will the U.S. be vigilant enough for long enough so that Taiwan remains independent. Personally I’m skeptical that this is so.

Always seems quite a stretch. China didn't first invade Taiwan until 1700 or thereabouts. They've been outside China for the last 120 years or so. China even formally ceded the territory to Japan in 1896 after the first China-Japan war.

Of course what should matter is what the people of Taiwan want. Will the West provide enough response if it were needed? Sadly I suspect not.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#99

Post by YorkshireSeason »

skh wrote: post #90
YorkshireSeason wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? Taiwan had been under Japanese rule for 50 years. When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi [1] from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of Taiwan Province [2]. The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) [3] and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) [4] both di…

What I meant was, didn’t the “Chinese people” (deliberately put in quotes) think of Taiwan as part of China? Japan took over Taiwan from China, didn’t it? As far as I know the PRC has always thought of Taiwan as part of China and I don’t think that will change soon. Thank you for the links.

Almost all Taiwanese citizens are descendants of people who migrated from the mainland. Note that Taiwan became an island only about 10000 years ago, when the sea levels rose. Taiwan was joined to the mainland before.

In the 17th century various European powers (Spain, Portugal, Dutch) sought to dominate Taiwan, but were eventually expelled, when the Qing dynasty (the last imperial dynasty of China) annexed Taiwan in 1683. That rule ended with the Qing's defeat in First Sino-Japanese War (1894–1895) [1]. Taiwan was ceded to Japan on 17 April 1895.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#100

Post by [deleted] »

skh wrote: post #77
SllX wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, the difference between de facto and de jure is just smoke and mirrors. Taiwan has been an effectively independent nation for over 50 years with fairly well defined borders and an inept organization like the United Nations is hardly your golden ticket for staking your sovereignty out on the map when the world is ruled by money, guns, drugs, and superior technology in approximately that order. The…

Prior to the Japanese takeover of Taiwan in the 1930s people considered Taiwan part of China. After Chiang fled to Taiwan and placed himself in power he called a Taiwan the Republic of China. The PRC constitution makes it clear that they consider Taiwan a province of mainland China. After many decades of domination by Japan and Western powers it’s understandable that many leaders in the PRC want a status quo ante wit…

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