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What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

reuters.com

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Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#71

Post by tsuabing »

graeme wrote: post #41
tsuabing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

Taiwan may be small economically, but we are still important strategically to the western world's alliance against China. The island act as a unsinkable carrier.

You have your facts wrong. Chinese GDP is fake and growth is declining every year. I have many Taiwanese manufacturer friends that sees the declining Chinese sales, exploding debts, and rising wages, and have moved most of their factories out of China. Meanwhile US, Europe and Japan is stronger than ever after the 2008 crash.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#72

Post by Leary »

tomohawk wrote: post #44
amaccuish wrote: post #12

> There is an ongoing discussion about China weaponizing tourism And America tried the same tatic with Cuba and many other countries. It's an effective tatic. China isn't doing anything new that hasn't been done before.

Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation. It still illegally holds these properties today. The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at the US. This almost caused a nuclear war. The US embargo was based on these and many other things. It is hardly a comparable situation.

Do you think the damages that the US embargo have caused over the decades to the Cuban people is justified because of Cuba's communist policies?

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#73

Post by Leary »

dleslie wrote: post #4
ericjang wrote: post #2

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

It will be interesting to see if/when China moves to economically censure a G8 country for engaging in trade with Taiwan.

Do you think China will gain more from censuring a country from engaging in trade with Taiwan? Has China ever done so?

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#74

Post by imbokodo »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #49
amaccuish wrote: post #12

> There is an ongoing discussion about China weaponizing tourism And America tried the same tatic with Cuba and many other countries. It's an effective tatic. China isn't doing anything new that hasn't been done before.

No. A) Cuba w/Soviets pointed nuclear missiles at the US. Iran's government perpetually declares they want to destroy the US. that's a tad offside compared to 'listing Taiwan as a country'. B) The US very very rarely controls where it's citizens can go. The moral/relative arguments used by the pro/defend China camp are tiring.

Cuba pointed missiles at the US because the US was openly gearing up for one of its many invasions of Cuba, shortly after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. The Soviets put nukes there because the US put nuclear missiles into Turkey.

The US government has declared they want to destroy the US. It has been the US interfering in Iran, not vice versa.

The US banned Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling from leaving the US, only giving him one shortly before his second Nobel prize to avoid international embarrassment.

Playwright and former Marilyn Monroe husband Arthur Miller was denied a passport, blocking him from seeing the Crucible open in London.

Civil rights icon Paul Robeson was denied a passport, explicitly to deny him the opportunity to talk about the state of national oppression of those of African descent in the US.

Also NY Post reporter William Withy Jr., Corliss Lamont, Howard Fast, Rockwell Kent...

In more recent days one can not drive a car in the US without a license, travel a plane without one, take an Amtrak train without one or ride a Greyhound bus without one. The US absolutely exercises control over where its citizens can go, many of these restrictions are new.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#75

Post by Leary »

tsuabing wrote: post #13
skh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with Ch…

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

Why does the Republic of China still claim mainland China?

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#76

Post by tsuabing »

Leary wrote: post #61
ballooney wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy stuff that's made in China, and optionally (but importantly) then email that CEO of the company whose stuff you decided not to buy that was made in China, explaining why. The dragon doesn't care what you say about it so long as it's still being fed.

Why does Foxconn have its operations in Mainland China when it's a Taiwanese firm? Should I email them and convince them to move out of China?

So? Many other countries have factories in China. But now even Samsung has most production in Vietnam. I have no doubt Foxconn will move most of production out of China soon. Foxconn is investing heavily in India production.

Yes, you should email Apple to tell them to move out of China.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#77

Post by skh »

SllX wrote: post #65
graeme wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the "do other countries recognize Taiwan as a country" sense. Generally speaking, the answer is that they don't. That means Taiwan's independence is only de facto, not de jure, and that is a very bad thing for Taiwan's prospects. Particularly in a world where China now has much more economic power than Taiwan. I'm not talking about "right". Like I said, I think Taiwan should be independent. But, I'm not optimistic…

With all due respect, the difference between de facto and de jure is just smoke and mirrors. Taiwan has been an effectively independent nation for over 50 years with fairly well defined borders and an inept organization like the United Nations is hardly your golden ticket for staking your sovereignty out on the map when the world is ruled by money, guns, drugs, and superior technology in approximately that order. The…

Prior to the Japanese takeover of Taiwan in the 1930s people considered Taiwan part of China. After Chiang fled to Taiwan and placed himself in power he called a Taiwan the Republic of China. The PRC constitution makes it clear that they consider Taiwan a province of mainland China. After many decades of domination by Japan and Western powers it’s understandable that many leaders in the PRC want a status quo ante with regard to Taiwan. Wether one agrees with their stance or not it is certainly understandable why they think the way they do. Also, for a while it was U.S. policy that there be one China. The issue is murky enough that the U.S. still does not recognize the ROC.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#78

Post by tomohawk »

Leary wrote: post #72
tomohawk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba's communist government nationalized property from people and corporations without any compensation. It still illegally holds these properties today. The communist Cuban government acceded to hosting Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at the US. This almost caused a nuclear war. The US embargo was based on these and many other things. It is hardly a comparable situation.

Do you think the damages that the US embargo have caused over the decades to the Cuban people is justified because of Cuba's communist policies?

I don't know. Do you think the damages the communist government have caused over the decades to the Cuban people are justified?

The embargo didn't ultimately work, and neither did the government.

I was just responding to the idea that an island that is no threat whatsoever to China, and which has never had nuclear missiles pointed at China, and which has not ever nationalized property from citizens of China was somehow equivalent to the Cuba situation.

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#79

Post by YorkshireSeason »

skh wrote: post #67
tsuabing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

It’s possible to understand a perspective while not agreeing with it. When Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? You can’t understand why the successors to the victors of the civil war in mainland China want to control Taiwan? There are now two Chinas. It’s understandable that some want there to be one China.

   Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan 
   considered part of China?
Taiwan had been under Japanese rule for 50 years. When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi [1] from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of Taiwan Province [2].

The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) [3] and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) [4] both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control now. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. (The real reason is quite different: it's Taiwan's thriving democracy which undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party narrative that democracy is neither needed nor desirable for the Chinese people.)

The administration of Taiwan under Chen Yi was strained by increasing tensions between Taiwanese-born people and newly arrived mainlanders. Even back then, many Taiwanese resented the increasing streams of mainlanders coming to Taiwan as the Chinese Civil War raged on the mainland. This culminated in the February 28 1947 Incident [5], which cemented the KMT's rule.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Yi_(Kuomintang)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28_Incident

Re: What happens when a Pacific island upsets China

#80

Post by skh »

graeme wrote: post #41
tsuabing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especi…

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you repli…

I never gave my opinion on the matter. I just stated that the perspective was understandable and it seems you largely agree with that statement. We have the same views on the situation.
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