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HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

hud.gov

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Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#431

Post by imron »

Kenji wrote: post #269
nostromo wrote: post #234

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targetin…

> As a gay person, I see this all over the web. Smiling happy gay people buying cars or real estate or whatever. Good lord. Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay?

> Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay?

There was a thing a few years back where Target was able to determine if someone was pregnant based on their purchasing habits [0].

Facebook, Google and others gather and track orders of magnitude more information than Target could ever dream of can certainly figure out if you are gay, straight, and anything else.

0: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits....

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#432

Post by int_19h »

dsr_ wrote: post #365
eahman00 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>to display/not display ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in a particular place of worship, religion or tenet, such as the "Christian Church," "Sikhism," "Hinduism," or the "Bible." It says "such as"; I'm interested if this list includes "synagogue" or "Torah". Is there any place the entire list is included?

No. The point of non-discrimination is not to protect certain classes, but to protect everyone. The list to check against has to grow over time to reflect current usage. "colanders", "pirates", "meatballs": the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze.

> the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze.

Only if they can demonstrate that their religious beliefs are sincere. There have been some court cases along these lines already.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#433

Post by ars »

scarface74 wrote: post #370
CydeWeys wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.

It’s slightly different with roommates. You can’t discriminate in advertising when it comes to roommate but you can discriminate when it comes to housing according to one ruling. https://www.sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-mea... Craigslist says something different. https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA#roommates Under federal Fair Housing law, the prohibition on discriminatory advertisements applies to a…

> will be sharing a bathroom, kitchen, or other common area, you may express a preference based upon sex only.

I wonder if someone who has a particular dietary restriction (kosher, halal, gluten free, vegan, etc.) can express a preference for a like minded person.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#434

Post by zapita »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #368
zapita wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases. I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “propaganda”, but everything you need to know is right there in the announcement: “ The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin,…

dennisgorelik is correct, and you are wrong, as to a specific scenario which I would still consider to be a "housing transaction". It is 100% legal to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, or any other characteristic at all when choosing a roommate (a special form of renting out your property). It is 100% illegal to place advertisements indicating that you will reject roommates based on race, sex, or other protecte…

So are you saying it's not the spirit and letter of the Fair Housing Act to forbid discrimination? Or are you saying that HUD is not arguing that Facebook enables illegal discrimination on their platform?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#435

Post by vkou »

int_19h wrote: post #432
dsr_ wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The point of non-discrimination is not to protect certain classes, but to protect everyone. The list to check against has to grow over time to reflect current usage. "colanders", "pirates", "meatballs": the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze.

> the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze. Only if they can demonstrate that their religious beliefs are sincere. There have been some court cases along these lines already.

Nobody asks a Christian to confirm that their beliefs are sincere, and that they aren't just pretending to believe in God, for the social benefits it brings.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#436

Post by vkou »

mindslight wrote: post #207
ABCLAW wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Legal just sleeping at the wheel? This is a very well known piece of history. I wonder how this conversation went when they were drawing up this feature.

Not preventing people from doing something illegal is not itself illegal?

Facebook is actively publishing these advertisements. They are breaking the law - that they do it on the behalf of someone else is no excuse.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#437

Post by dennisgorelik »

zapita wrote: post #315
dennisgorelik wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But privately filtering who this ad will show to -- is NOT the same as publicly "advertising ... indicating preference". > You are violating the spirit of the law. No. The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases.

> The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases. I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “propaganda”, but everything you need to know is right there in the announcement: “ The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin,…

> discrimination in housing transactions

"Advertising housing" is NOT "housing transaction". Transaction happens when landlord and renter signing renting agreement.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#438

Post by astura »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #288
astura wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are enforcing this part of the FHA (emphasis mine): >(c) To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin, or an intention to make any such preference, limitat…

But these ads do NOT indicate any preference. These ads simply do not run for the people outside of target audience. The main reason why racial preferences are not allowed to get published -- is because it reinforces public bias toward specific race. But if ads are simply not shown to some group -- what is the problem with that?

>if ads are simply not shown to some group -- what is the problem with that?

It's illegal, that's the problem.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#439

Post by zapita »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #437
zapita wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases. I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “propaganda”, but everything you need to know is right there in the announcement: “ The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin,…

> discrimination in housing transactions "Advertising housing" is NOT "housing transaction". Transaction happens when landlord and renter signing renting agreement.

I haven't expressed an opinion either way - I'm just quoting what the linked article says.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#440

Post by astura »

scarface74 wrote: post #370
CydeWeys wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.

It’s slightly different with roommates. You can’t discriminate in advertising when it comes to roommate but you can discriminate when it comes to housing according to one ruling. https://www.sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-mea... Craigslist says something different. https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA#roommates Under federal Fair Housing law, the prohibition on discriminatory advertisements applies to a…

Craigslist says the same thing

>Decision-making: Although the prohibition on discriminatory advertising applies to roommate and shared housing situations, federal Fair Housing laws do not cover the basis of decisions made by landowners who own less than four units, and live in one of the units. This means that in a situation in which a landlord owns less than four rental units, and lives in one of the units, it is legal for the owner to discriminate in the selection process based on the aforementioned categories, but it is illegal for that owner to advertise or otherwise make a statement expressing that discriminatory preference.

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