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HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

hud.gov

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Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#361

Post by thomastjeffery »

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

Your metaphor is broken: It's more like if you own a radio station, and play user-contributed ads, you are liable for the illegal ads.

It's not a very good metaphor, because no radio station simply publishes user-contributed content.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#362

Post by dsr_ »

LanceH wrote: post #342

So if I get a radio license and then broadcast an illegal ad, it's the FCC's fault. Why is everyone trying so hard to turn facebook (and google, twitter, etc...) into a filter on everything we say? When facebook gets held responsible for all content in all jurisdiction it will err on the side of proscription. It was only about 10 years ago that many now acceptable (mandatory even) progressive positions were not in fa…

No, if you get a radio license and so something illegal with it, that's your fault, and the FCC is the authority that can punish you for it.

In this case, just like Facebook.

Your responsibility, handed to you with the license, is to not do illegal things, even if people want to pay you money to do it. It's especially bad if you build an automated system that has options for people to do illegal things, since you are in charge of that. The FCC may or may not go after the people who bought the illegal-thing-service from you, but they will definitely go after you.

And the correct solution is to not have the options open in the first place. "Would you like to place an ad? Is it for real estate or housing in any way? OK, the following advertising options are open to you, but others have been turned off in order to comply with the law."

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#363

Post by CydeWeys »

scarface74 wrote: post #349
throwawaymath wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that inclusionary targeting is legal whereas exclusionary targeting is not, and exclusionary targeting is what's happening. Inclusionary targeting uses logic of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; load content specialized for subgroup A." Exclusionary targeting is of the form, "This user corresponds to subgroup A; do not load any content for this user." If you'd l…

It’s not even that deep or complicated. You can target however you want to except when it comes to housing . They can’t claim ignorance. When I use to run ads as a landlord in the paper, the paper had specific guidelines in their real estate section and would deny any ad that broke the guideline. https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ Equal Housing Opportunity. Any real estate advertising on this website i…

Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#364

Post by tekromancr »

samfisher83 wrote: post #49

These are the specific points they are going after: -display housing ads either only to men or women; -not show ads to Facebook users interested in an "assistance dog," "mobility scooter," "accessibility" or "deaf culture"; -not show ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in "child care" or "parenting," or show ads only to users with children above a specified age; -to display/not display ads to users w…

The geotargeting polygon was literally RED!?!

I can believe that being an oversight, but holy Shit those optics... yikes

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#365

Post by dsr_ »

eahman00 wrote: post #121
samfisher83 wrote: post #49

These are the specific points they are going after: -display housing ads either only to men or women; -not show ads to Facebook users interested in an "assistance dog," "mobility scooter," "accessibility" or "deaf culture"; -not show ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in "child care" or "parenting," or show ads only to users with children above a specified age; -to display/not display ads to users w…

>to display/not display ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in a particular place of worship, religion or tenet, such as the "Christian Church," "Sikhism," "Hinduism," or the "Bible." It says "such as"; I'm interested if this list includes "synagogue" or "Torah". Is there any place the entire list is included?

No. The point of non-discrimination is not to protect certain classes, but to protect everyone. The list to check against has to grow over time to reflect current usage.

"colanders", "pirates", "meatballs": the Pastafarians are just as much a protected class as Catholics, Jains and Druze.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#366

Post by [deleted] »

iamleppert wrote: post #277

Wow, this page is pretty damning evidence: https://www.facebook.com/business/success/quadrant-homes It basically is showing that Facebook knowingly implemented a system to discriminate against people. Even the stock photos are full of white people. Here's hoping HUD makes a big example out of them and fines them to the fullest extent of the law.

[deleted]

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#367

Post by Dylan16807 »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #313
fma wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take a stab. You have a rental house where you want to rent out to senior citizens (for whatever reason). You put your ad in the local AARP magazine. If a young couple stumble upon the ad in the magazine, they can read the ad and apply for your rental. However, what FB is doing is...that young couple reads the magazine and can't see the ad, but a senior citizen can. IANAL...and for what it's worth there's a simi…

> young couple ... can't see the ad, but a senior citizen can Yes. Which is a good thing, because it saves time both to renters and landlords. It also does not offend anyone, because there is no public age discrimination wording in the ad. The most important part for our discussion here: there is no public promotion of age superiority in these ads. Therefore this Fair_Housing_Act does NOT apply.

> Which is a good thing, because it saves time both to renters and landlords.

When it comes to protected classes, it's not 'saving time' because a landlord acting legally is equally likely to rent to either group.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#368

Post by thaumasiotes »

zapita wrote: post #315
dennisgorelik wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But privately filtering who this ad will show to -- is NOT the same as publicly "advertising ... indicating preference". > You are violating the spirit of the law. No. The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases.

> The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases. I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “propaganda”, but everything you need to know is right there in the announcement: “ The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin,…

dennisgorelik is correct, and you are wrong, as to a specific scenario which I would still consider to be a "housing transaction". It is 100% legal to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, or any other characteristic at all when choosing a roommate (a special form of renting out your property). It is 100% illegal to place advertisements indicating that you will reject roommates based on race, sex, or other protected characteristic. So in that case, the law is very specifically about the contents of the advertisement, not about the behavior of discriminating against certain renters.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#369

Post by jahewson »

tekromancr wrote: post #364
samfisher83 wrote: post #49

These are the specific points they are going after: -display housing ads either only to men or women; -not show ads to Facebook users interested in an "assistance dog," "mobility scooter," "accessibility" or "deaf culture"; -not show ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in "child care" or "parenting," or show ads only to users with children above a specified age; -to display/not display ads to users w…

The geotargeting polygon was literally RED!?! I can believe that being an oversight, but holy Shit those optics... yikes

For those outside the US who may be wondering why this is so significant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#370

Post by scarface74 »

CydeWeys wrote: post #363
scarface74 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not even that deep or complicated. You can target however you want to except when it comes to housing . They can’t claim ignorance. When I use to run ads as a landlord in the paper, the paper had specific guidelines in their real estate section and would deny any ad that broke the guideline. https://www.ajc.com/visitor_agreement_mobile_old/ Equal Housing Opportunity. Any real estate advertising on this website i…

Anyone who's ever even looked for a roommate on Craigslist has seen all this information, too. I'm actually kind of flabbergasted that Craigslist handles it correctly and Facebook does not, just given how much more competent Facebook seems based on contrasting the look of the two sites.

It’s slightly different with roommates. You can’t discriminate in advertising when it comes to roommate but you can discriminate when it comes to housing according to one ruling.

https://www.sharinghousing.com/what-the-fair-housing-act-mea...

Craigslist says something different.

https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA#roommates

Under federal Fair Housing law, the prohibition on discriminatory advertisements applies to all situations except the following:

Shared Housing Exemption -- If you are advertising a shared housing unit, in which tenants will be sharing a bathroom, kitchen, or other common area, you may express a preference based upon sex only.

Private Club and Religious Exemptions -- A religious community or private club whose membership is not restricted based upon race, color, or national origin may restrict tenancy only to its members in a property that it owns, and may advertise to that effect.

Housing for Older Persons Exemption -- As discussed below, certain complexes for elderly persons are exempt from prohibitions on familial status discrimination, including the prohibitions on discriminatory advertising.

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