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HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

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Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hypothetical question. Does it really correlate with protected group memberships?

> Does it really correlate with protected group memberships? Yes: "the vast majority of families (73%) who buy organic describe themselves as white" [1] Now, you might say, "Okay then. Let's prohibit ad targeting by food preference." But the trouble is that there are hundreds of factors that correlate with protected group membership. Are you going to ban them all? [1] https://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Article/2015/04…

> But the trouble is that there are hundreds of factors that correlate with protected group membership. Are you going to ban them all?

It's a tough question to answer. I believe you were debating me about the use of ZIP code as a proxy in another comment thread so I'll touch on that also.

If it's found that organic food preference is systemically being used as a proxy for a protected class, as ZIP code has been in the past, then it might end up being banned. By following this process could you end up with a list of hundreds of banned factors? In theory yes, but in practice it seems unlikely, just because of how long it would take to study each factor and go through the process of adding it to a banned list. It took a long time for redlining to be made illegal. The article you provided says that organic food preference is gradually starting to mirror the general population, so if current trends continue it eventually won't be useful as a signal for race-based discrimination. Furthermore unlike redlining, there's no vicious circle of "I eat non-organic food -> I can't get a loan to buy organic food -> I have to continue eating non-organic food". By the time you had enough data to decide whether discrimination based on a particular factor constitutes de facto discrimination against a protected class, that correlation might have ceased to exist.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#332
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your metaphor is off. It's like advertising a job posting for a doctor only in majority-white medical schools.

What if a job posting is advertised at a majority black medical school? Is that ok?

Yes. Because it’s not stopping a white person who happens to be going to an HBCU from seeing the ad. I get flyers all of the time from politicians that target those evil liberals who are trying to change “the culture” of America because they are targeting based on zip code.

Let’s just say when they walk the neighborhood and I open the door, they are flummoxed when they don’t feel comfortable using their usually spiel...

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#333
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's just kind of a longstanding concept. If I've found the provision you're referencing ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17790555 ), then it's a bit disingenuous to assert Faceboot is automatically in its scope, when it's this status as a conduit versus editor that is the very thing we're grappling with. As has been explained elsewhere in this thread, there are legitimate uses for selecting specific area…

Please keep flamewar rhetoric off HN.

It's very odd that detracting from a two minute hate gets labeled as the flamewar.

I get that if everybody commenting is in agreement, then there is no "war". It's just utterly anti-intellectual, and I thought HN was above that.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#334
post #26

How did they not see this coming. Are they not familiar with another dotcom called Craigslist who had to deal with this very same regulation years ago. Their counsel either wasn't aware of what FB marketplace was doing or didn't know about FHA laws. > draw a red line around zip codes and then not display ads to Facebook users who live in specific zip codes. This alone is really damn damning. I'm going to go out on a…

> draw a red line around zip codes and then not display ads to Facebook users who live in specific zip codes. This is actually somewhat odd in this context. Obviously if you're advertising housing in Boston you don't want to be advertising it to people in Washington or China, or probably even Springfield. So you need some way to specify a set of regions and zip code is the obvious way of doing that.

It can get much more granular than that. E.g. you may not want people living in certain neighborhoods to see your property listing.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#335

> The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability, or familial status. Emphasis mine. If the FHA does indeed prohibit online advertisement discriminating on those criteria, this sounds pretty damning to Facebook. Those are some of the key features of Facebook ads.

The ads themselves are protected, but wouldn’t the publication venue not be covered? Otherwise housing ads in the Chicago Defender would be illegal right?

The publication is indeed liable. The language isn't about placing the ad: "To make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement..."

A classic example was a case brought against the New York Times for discriminatory housing classified ads.

Now, what's interesting here is that Facebook is involved in the targeting. So, if you only place housing ads in the Chicago Defender, and don't place them in White newspapers, the Defender isn't involved in your discrimination; however, if you place ads in the Defender stating "Black Tenants Only" and the Defender published those, the Defender would probably be liable. And if you pay an advertising firm and tell them to only place your ad in "Black" newspapers then that firm that did the targeting would be liable.

(Although in terms of enforcement priorities, such discrimination is probably very small-scale and wouldn't be very high up on HUD's or DoJ's list.)

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#336
post #228

So they want FB to make "housing" ads a separate, algorithmically tracked entity like political ads are. Not a fan - where would it end?

It would end where the specific categories of advertising are not the ones specifically covered by legislation. Off the top of my head - housing, employment, and political campaigning.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#338
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing advertising job openings to doctors with advertising apartments to only people of a certain race? You can’t just parameterize “x” and call it an argument.

A better comparison is advertising in a catholic newspaper. Is that a discrimination toward non catholics? It’s a bit of a stretch.

No, for a simple reason: A muslim (say) is free to read a catholic newspaper. A muslim is not free to look at catholic-targeted advertising on facebook. In the particular case: If a muslim can't find a house fitting their requirements in their muslim newspaper, they could just buy a catholic newspaper and have a look whether there are any offers in there that are of interest to them. They have no such choice on facebook.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#339
post #268

A question if you run ads and tune your ad buy to focus on those people with the highest conversion rate. To reduce the amount you're spending by targeting the ads, does this mean that's not allowed? It looks like this is to ensure advertisement reaches all protected categories. Can this mean that one would be forced to advertise in magazines that cater to different audiences? To guarantee a certain subset of the pop…

> If you had a building in an area that catered to people speaking a minority language (5%) of the population; can you target speakers of that language or do you have to spend 20x? If I understand correctly, your argument is that optimizing cost goes against making fairness for all its citizens. So, it is a matter of priority. What is more important "fairness and justice" or "cost reduction"?

You can target whoever you want to in traditional media. With traditional media for instance, you can target off campus housing to a majority White college,but there is no way that you can stop a minority from seeing the ads.

With FB, you could target an ad to people who go to that school who are of certain race. (https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/609543/faceboo...)

This is specifically not allowed by the Fair Housing Act.

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