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HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

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Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#311

Post by chickenfries »

Kenji wrote: post #269
nostromo wrote: post #234

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targetin…

> As a gay person, I see this all over the web. Smiling happy gay people buying cars or real estate or whatever. Good lord. Does that mean that so many advertisers track your activities so thoroughly that they figured out you're gay?

In the case of Facebook, you either put this in your profile, or the kinds of pages and events that you like and interact with will give this away.

Not saying that it's not creepy, just that with the way we use the internet these days, it's not an epic feat for an advertiser to figure this out given the amount of data we put out there.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#312

Post by erik_seaberg »

reaperducer wrote: post #162
perl4ever wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that easy, because there are many proxies that correlate with protected categories. For instance, take a look at the greater DC area with census data on race. You can easily target regions without explicitly using race.

It's not that easy If a small town newspaper with a staff of 30 can do it, Facebook has both the staff and resources to do the same. If it cannot, or will not, it should not take advertisements for sectors that are regulated.

But small town newspapers are endangered by those costs! Facebook only makes about $6 ARPU. Automating the crap out of everything is what enables them to exist.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#313

Post by dennisgorelik »

fma wrote: post #309
dennisgorelik wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please explain how exactly Fair Housing Act makes Facebook filtering illegal? Lack of advertising is not the same as "refuse to sell".

I'll take a stab. You have a rental house where you want to rent out to senior citizens (for whatever reason). You put your ad in the local AARP magazine. If a young couple stumble upon the ad in the magazine, they can read the ad and apply for your rental. However, what FB is doing is...that young couple reads the magazine and can't see the ad, but a senior citizen can. IANAL...and for what it's worth there's a simi…

> young couple ... can't see the ad, but a senior citizen can

Yes. Which is a good thing, because it saves time both to renters and landlords.

It also does not offend anyone, because there is no public age discrimination wording in the ad.

The most important part for our discussion here: there is no public promotion of age superiority in these ads. Therefore this Fair_Housing_Act does NOT apply.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#314

Post by fma »

loeg wrote: post #224
dantheman wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't requirements though; it's not like saying you must speak Italian to live here. It's more like advertising a job posting for a doctor in a medical journal instead of a car magazine.

Your metaphor is off. It's like advertising a job posting for a doctor only in majority-white medical schools.

I don't think your metaphor is on point, either. I'm going to guess an ad in a majority-white med school is allowed (can I go on a limb and say most med schools are majority, white, anyways?).

But nothing is stopping a black person from seeing the ad.

In FB's case, it's like posting an ad at a med school (any, med school, regardless of demographics) and say...you can only view this add if you're white.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#315

Post by zapita »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #308
samfisher83 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says right on the wiki page: Advertising the sale or rental of a dwelling indicating preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, disability or national origin. Tech has changed so you can do the targeting. You are violating the spirit of the law. The point is if you make sure blacks, Mexicans, or women can't see your ad you are trying to exclude them.

But privately filtering who this ad will show to -- is NOT the same as publicly "advertising ... indicating preference". > You are violating the spirit of the law. No. The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases.

> The spirit of the law is to prohibit public racial propaganda. The spirit of the law is NOT about hunting down private biases.

I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “propaganda”, but everything you need to know is right there in the announcement: “The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing transactions including print and online advertisement on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability, or familial status. HUD's Secretary-initiated complaint follows the Department's investigation into Facebook's advertising platform which includes targeting tools that enable advertisers to filter prospective tenants or homebuyers based on these protected classes.”

So both the spirit and letter of the law forbid discrimination, and they are arguing that Facebook enables illegal discrimination on their platform.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#316

Post by azernik »

mynegation wrote: post #86
AdamM12 wrote: post #64

Why is Facebook in trouble for this and not the persons who actually placed the ads? They aren't the ones renting the real estate. They don't own it. Government overreach imo. Edit: grammatical mistakes

Rhetorical or not, this question deserves to be upvoted more. How is it different from hardware store that sell knives that can be used to cut vegetables or people, at the discretion of the buyer? Maybe a better way to deal with that is a different regulation. Mandate the industry designation in the ad and if it is something protected by existing laws, like housing or job ads, remove filters that allow for adding or…

We don't do that for knives.

However, we do have laws about sales of guns, chemical weapons precursors, nuclear fuel, aircraft, etc.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#317

Post by scarface74 »

nostromo wrote: post #234

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targetin…

There are specific laws about how you can advertise real estate for sale or rent. Every real estate agent and landlord knows the rules.

https://www.thebalance.com/fair-housing-act-violation-179889...

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#318

Post by swerveonem »

samfisher83 wrote: post #49

These are the specific points they are going after: -display housing ads either only to men or women; -not show ads to Facebook users interested in an "assistance dog," "mobility scooter," "accessibility" or "deaf culture"; -not show ads to users whom Facebook categorizes as interested in "child care" or "parenting," or show ads only to users with children above a specified age; -to display/not display ads to users w…

Facebook did this or housing companies used the Facebook targeting boolean option to configure ad campaigns in this way?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#319

Post by scarface74 »

trashcan wrote: post #296
trashcan wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it is illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act You can't choose to rent based on familial status.

I can't reply to you cabaalis, but the difference is excluding (discriminating) versus targeting. Targeting is legal, discriminating is not. As in the Alamo Drafthouse is more than welcome to have a women's night event for a particular movie, but if they refuse men at the door solely for their gender, that is illegal. https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/alamo-drafthouse-admi...

Targeting is not legal when it comes to real estate advertising.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#320

Post by scarface74 »

cabaalis wrote: post #292
trashcan wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it is illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act You can't choose to rent based on familial status.

I understand and agree that it's wrong. On a purely theoretical level, I think the question is philosophical. They're not turning these people away, just not trying to draw them in. This happens elsewhere in society, right or wrong. Examples: gay bars, "black" churches, biker establishments.

It’s is specifically illegal to advertise real estate based on such criteria.

https://nationalfairhousing.org/responsibleadvertising/

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