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What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

freemovement.org.uk

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Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#171

Post by pvaldes »

brm wrote: post #89

It shouldn't be this hard in the first place... Want a strong country? Let anyone who puts 50,000 of your currency in a local bank and has a college degree stay there. I shouldn't need 250K and have a business plan, or 2 million pounds to invest. I certainly shouldn't have to bond myself to a corporation or get married to be allowed to live there and pay taxes. Ban me from public government benefits for 5 years until…

> Want a strong country? Let anyone who puts 50,000 of your currency in a local bank and has a college degree stay there.

Lord drugs, third world genociders, sucessfull scammers and high standing criminals. Everybody loves them...

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#172

Post by [deleted] »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #168
uniqueid wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Not every form of democracy is a liberal democracy. In a liberal democracy, some entity such as the judicial system is supposed to prevent the rest of government from tyrannizing minorities. Democracy protects the majority from a minority (ie: nobility). Liberalism protects minorities (eg: people an with unpopular philosophy, religious view, ethnicity, language) from the majority.

This again depends on a definition of "liberalism" accepted by all, but I find the term "illiberal" or "non-liberal democracy" (i.e. the opposite of a liberal democracy) to be very difficult to interpret. Is it a democracy in which people have the right to vote, but their liberties are not protected by the law? But- the right to vote is a liberty. And then again, how come people voted to have their liberties not prot…

[deleted]

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#173

Post by azinman2 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #131
azinman2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn’t always the best form of government for a given population. I think all attempts to force it that have blown up are a good demonstration of this. It depends a lot on the culture, the would be leaders, etc. It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported.

Your last sentence is 100% true: forcing democracy on a country is never going to work. But claiming that democracy doesn't suit all populations is something I do not agree with. Democracy is the only form of government where (in practice) the people have a say in how their country is run.

But how can you say that’s ideal for all? And that’s even suggesting that the mechanisms underlying keep that going for real and not just in name.

America is losing is democracy as the money in politics is determining policy more than the constituents voting [1]. China, meanwhile, is vastly expanding its empire and economy under totalitarian control that’s lifting millions out of poverty [2]. Other countries have populations that want clerics or other religious folks at top (e.g. Iran), or tend to have a history of authoritarian rule and a population that respects that. There are many different forms, and I find it to be cultural imperialism to suggest there is an ultimate form of government for all people. That is coming from your own values, which is due to where you were raised and the larger social norms.... not some commandments from the heavens that dictate what it must be.

Democracy can be great (in theory), but it’s not the only way.

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#174

Post by accnumnplus1 »

xaranke wrote: post #166
accnumnplus1 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what's unclear. Some people are pro-immigration, and some are anti-immigration, and some don't give a fuck, and some are undecided. The London wait staff you encountered, and the 65+ million people you didn't encounter, the overwhelming majority of whom are not wait staff, and most of whom live outside London, are all somewhere on that spectrum of opinion. The words you selected, obviously, I think, refer to…

Thanks for the clarification. I interpreted this as British people being forced into things they didn't want to do (such as menial jobs) but I realize now that you meant that they were forced into the decision of allowing immigration that as you rightly pointed out they didn't want. Also I'm not sure if you intended your comment to be patronizing, but it does read that way. Thanks again for the clarification.

"things they didn't want to do (such as menial jobs) " -- I didn't say anything of the sort, there was nothing to interpret, that's pure projection on your part, so you're calling the British arrogant and lazy. Patronising, yes, I thought you needed it.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#175

Post by vixen99 »

ppod wrote: post #43

I moved to the UK seven years ago, and have clearly noticed a change in the time I've been here. It wasn't perfect to begin with, but there is now a clear popular attitude against non-British people. It's worse against non-white people and eastern europeans, but there is also a level of general xenophobia. Of course, this is not the prevailing situation in London and cosmopolitan cities, but it is prevalent among the…

If you look at the graph here https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-st... you can see migration levels consistently rising from 1975 to 2017 with 250,000 expected this year. Is there any level of migration for which critics would not be perjoratively labelled xenophobes by you?

The definition of xenophobe is 'one unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin' it could be that folk are not 'unduly fearful' in the UK where to mention only a few problems related to population density, there is an acute housing shortage, roads are clogged and the National Health Service is close to breakdown in many areas.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#176

Post by teknico »

tinktank wrote: post #155
mmsimanga wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% with you. At some point, someone has to ask who/what is causing the immigrants. I know the answer isn't simple. Some will even say the West is caused all the issues in the first place. At some point though we have to start discussing concrete ways of changing the status quos and moving forward. Changing UK immigration laws might help a few of us get into the UK but not much will change in the home country. The s…

Yes, that's the point I'm making. The west maintains the status quo because it's of benefit to them, they just don't want any of the side-effects (including increased migration). Colonization hasn't gone away, it's just changed form.

Downvoting reality does not make it less so, people.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#177

Post by repolfx »

azinman2 wrote: post #173
Cyph0n wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence is 100% true: forcing democracy on a country is never going to work. But claiming that democracy doesn't suit all populations is something I do not agree with. Democracy is the only form of government where (in practice) the people have a say in how their country is run.

But how can you say that’s ideal for all? And that’s even suggesting that the mechanisms underlying keep that going for real and not just in name. America is losing is democracy as the money in politics is determining policy more than the constituents voting [1]. China, meanwhile, is vastly expanding its empire and economy under totalitarian control that’s lifting millions out of poverty [2]. Other countries have pop…

America is losing is democracy as the money in politics is determining policy more than the constituents voting

And yet American's current president was elected despite him being out-spent 2:1 by Hillary Clinton. In the UK Leave won despite being outgunned and outspent by Remain.

In fact here is a study that claims campaign spending during general elections has essentially no impact whatsoever.

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/gsb-cmis/gsb-cmis-download-auth...

China was dirt poor because of its long, unbroken history of dictatorship. It's still poor today, although given the fraudulent nature of many Chinese statistics it's hard to know how poor. But the fact that the PRC appears to have learned a few lessons by copying the success of more democratic capitalist nations, is in no way a vindication of dictatorship: there are still so many lessons for China to learn.

Finally, the "cultural imperialism" line. I wonder if you actually are Chinese, to be using that line, because it's one the PRC pushes constantly. The idea that dictatorship and democracy are two equally valid ways to run a country can be easily disproven by just looking at how many people mourn the passing of dictatorships when they fall (not many), or their success rates in various metrics. Democracy is clearly a much better way to run things.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#178

Post by repolfx »

uniqueid wrote: post #148
chrisseaton wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're loading 'democracy' up with some extra values there that aren't really part of the definition. Democracy just means governed by the people. It doesn't mean liberal, or enlightened, or progressive, or open to visitors, or anything like that. Just governed by the people. The people can be left wing or right wing, progressive or regressive, whatever.

Yes. Not every form of democracy is a liberal democracy. In a liberal democracy, some entity such as the judicial system is supposed to prevent the rest of government from tyrannizing minorities. Democracy protects the majority from a minority (ie: nobility). Liberalism protects minorities (eg: people an with unpopular philosophy, religious view, ethnicity, language) from the majority.

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Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#179

Post by repolfx »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #168
uniqueid wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Not every form of democracy is a liberal democracy. In a liberal democracy, some entity such as the judicial system is supposed to prevent the rest of government from tyrannizing minorities. Democracy protects the majority from a minority (ie: nobility). Liberalism protects minorities (eg: people an with unpopular philosophy, religious view, ethnicity, language) from the majority.

This again depends on a definition of "liberalism" accepted by all, but I find the term "illiberal" or "non-liberal democracy" (i.e. the opposite of a liberal democracy) to be very difficult to interpret. Is it a democracy in which people have the right to vote, but their liberties are not protected by the law? But- the right to vote is a liberty. And then again, how come people voted to have their liberties not prot…

Don't try and parse the term literally, the term is a contradiction - there's no such thing as an "illiberal democracy" for the reasons you specify. People who use that word simply mean "democracies where my personal views on things like immigration don't win".

The term illiberal democracy is an especially empty one because more or less any decision can be phrased in terms of positive liberties - e.g. "restrictions on immigration preserve the liberty of voters to enjoy and propagate their own culture".

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#180

Post by repolfx »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #170
cm2187 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy doesn't mean open borders.

Historically, closed borders were associated with Socialist countries, like the USSR, that are generally not considered particularly democratic.

Every country ever has had borders that were closed to immigration to some extent, that is part of the definition of what a country is. The USSR had closed borders to prevent emigration however I do not know of any democracies that do this, although one could argue America's exit taxes are a soft form of it.

The idea that immigration controls are un-democratic is a very modern idea and one that is entirely indefensible.

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