Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

hud.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 568 posts

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#251

Post by throwawaymath »

nostromo wrote: post #234

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targetin…

What you're describing makes sense, but would it not also be possible with inclusion-based targeting instead of exclusion-based targeting?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#252

Post by dibstern »

AdamM12 wrote: post #95
null000 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is similar to if the NYT ran discriminatory ads - which is an actual case from the 1980s and resulted in both notable fines, and the NYT having humans review housing ads for discriminatory practices, such as having an unrepresentably white set of models in housing ads (from one of the propublica links in some of the other comments). Same goes for craigslist, which also has to screen housing ads. I'd argue both a…

No only person that is responsible is the person who placed the ad. Facebook didn't select the target market and write up the copy.

You just want to change the law to benefit Facebook. Seems odd.

Your other comments state that you value the ideal entirely over the practical, with the practical having no value to you at all. Fortunately, the practical is considered important by lawmakers.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#253

Post by jogjayr »

dominotw wrote: post #241
jogjayr wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that even though the intention of that is discriminatory in some way (and not necessarily against protected classes - the Whole Foods ads might be simply to target higher-income tenants), it's not in fact exclusionary. There's nothing preventing anyone who's not the normal target of these ads from going to Whole Foods or buying those newspapers. In FB's case the excluded audience has no chance of ever…

> There's nothing preventing anyone who's not the normal target of these ads from going to Whole Foods You could argue whole foods prices do prevent vast majority of ppl from going to whole foods.

Sure. But income or wealth aren't protected classes. And anyone can walk into a Whole Foods just to see the ads, without spending any money. There is targeting happening when you advertise in Whole Foods but it's not discriminatory against a protected class.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#254

Post by iamdave »

doctorless wrote: post #248
cpkpad wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what's being suggested. The idea that redlining should be reexamined by the courts every half century or so is what's being suggested. In 2018, courts ought to find its still illegal give facebook a book fine. In 2118? Hopefully we'll be past racism and courts will find the concept obsolete and antiquated. Or they may find racism is common but the tools needed to manage it are different. The Inte…

Having been in a mixed-race relationship where one partner is brown, I can tell you firsthandedly that if you think racism is rare, then you’re probably white or Asian or you have consistently lived in areas where racism is actually rare. I lived in places where when I was young, I never saw anyone engage in racist behaviors. This changed the moment I entered that relationship. It may have ended long ago, but it’s de…

if you think racism is rare, then you’re probably white or Asian

I sincerely hope this isn't an intimation that Asians are somehow immune from forms of racism or racially charged behavior?

Would you be able to clarify this a bit? Maybe I've misunderstood you.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#255

Post by jogjayr »

kryogen1c wrote: post #41

This complaint seems like its shooting itself in the foot - discrimination isn't inherently bad. When you hire, you discriminate based on ability. When you date, you discriminate in a number of ways like beauty, personality, etc. If you're selling ads for wheelchairs you want to discriminate for people with disabilities. If your houses aren't wheelchair accessible, you want your ads to discriminate against people wit…

The law finds the combination of "housing ad" and "discriminatory targeting" to be illegal. You can do discriminatory targeting when you're selling wheelchairs or other products. You can post housing ads. You just can't do both.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#256

Post by mastax »

AdamM12 wrote: post #182
joejerryronnie wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, the people who placed the ads are also liable. Practically speaking, which one sounds better: "HUD files discrimination complaint against Facebook" or "HUD files discrimination complaint against Jimmy's Duplex-Mania in rural Alabama"?

But is HUD going after them?

Raise the relevant budgets, hire a few thousand more US Attorneys and maybe they'll get around to it.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#257

Post by nostromo »

throwawaymath wrote: post #251
nostromo wrote: post #234

In most verticals marketers will have a set of ads for different demographics: say gay, suburban, latino, black, Spanish-speaking, etc. Each of those campaigns will have different creative: for example, a real estate ad targeted to latinos will have an image showing a smiling latino couple. I can understand why the marketer would not want to show this creative to white, black, or asians -- given that they're targetin…

What you're describing makes sense, but would it not also be possible with inclusion-based targeting instead of exclusion-based targeting?

Is there a difference?

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#258

Post by bertil »

jerf wrote: post #57
joelhaasnoot wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they determine what's a housing ad? There's two pieces to this a) Facebook makes this possible and b) Facebook damns themselves and promotes that they make this possible for housing. Part b is easy to fix: make it harder to do housing ads that are targeted. However, part a is much harder: what stops me from advertising my AirBnb listing as a URL on Facebook as a "generic ad"?

"How do they determine what's a housing ad?" You ask the user to say what type of ad it is, under penalty of violation of contract, and contractually obligate them to carry the legal risk if they lie. There's no requirement that it be done via some fancy ML algorithm. I would expect that unless FB actively attempts to piss off the government, that would pass legal muster. Goodness knows I've signed enough agreements…

I’m afraid that the law being used to accuse Facebook would apply in that case too.

Re: HUD Files Housing Discrimination Complaint Against Facebook

#259

Post by Karishma1234 »

dang wrote: post #193
Karishma1234 wrote: post #56

Essentially an archaic organisation using an archaic law against a modern ad delivery platform. What a travesty.

Would you please stop using HN primarily for political battle? It's destructive of what this site exists for, the site guidelines ask you not to, and we ban accounts that continue doing it, regardless of their politics. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am unable to see any political arguments here. Need to take off your hippie glasses I suppose.
Post reply on HN