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The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

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Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#11
post #6

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

What would be the advantage of using gravity waves?

Maybe the complexity required in detecting them acts as a form of security by obscurity. It's far more likely that radio waves would be intercepted.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#12
post #8
post #2

This seems like a thing to build on the moon.

Or even better - make it space based: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Interferometer_Space_Ant...

Unfortunate to see NASA was forced to withdrawal (for budgetary concerns).

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#13

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

Another answer to the Fermi paradox is that a Kardashev Type 4 civilization is able to harness the power of an entire universe. We wouldn't be able to detect this by definition, since they exist outside of our perceived reality.

At first glance, this seems to be a useless theory, since it's not refutable. But it lends itself to a belief system: by studying the universe, we gain an understanding of whatever created it. This is helpful as a motive: a reason for studying any of this at all, in absence of economic or social incentives.

This seems important. As the centuries tick by, and as we confirm and re-confirm that we are indeed alone and that we do indeed have a mostly-complete model of physics, there will become less and less incentive to analyze the corner cases. It's costly, and takes decades. But at one time, it was costly and took decades to build a cathedral. Yet we accomplished these impressive feats due to a shared belief system.

The reason I brought this up is that we often like to believe there is an advanced alien civilization tucked away in some corner of some galaxy, sending out messages via gravitational waves or neutrinos. But why do humans find this idea so seductive? It's because of an underlying loneliness: we want to believe that we are connected with the universe in some fashion, that our existence has a point, and that there is reason to do anything at all in a universe that will exist long after we've gone, long after our solar system and sun has gone. Because if there were an alien civilization, at least we would not be so alone.

In that context, a solution to Fermi's paradox is simply to believe that our very universe exists due to some higher-order phenomena not knowable within our reality. And by studying the laws of physics, we gain a glimpse into the boundary between our universe and its hypervisor.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#14
post #9

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

I’ve had similar thoughts and assume aliens would use something like lasers to have point to point communication rather than broadcast RF. Of course for us we’d never detect those point to point transmissions unless we were incredibly lucky to be along the vector between two aliens communicating.

Even if you assume a "manycast" or "broadcast" type of communication rather than point-to-point, e.g. some kind of technology which could radiate information-packed gravitational waves traveling at light speed in all directions of 3D space simultaneously, and even if you assume hundreds of thousands of independent intelligent civilizations throughout the universe are doing this right now, it is likely humans will never, ever detect any of them, due to the sheer size of the universe.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#15

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

Another answer to the Fermi paradox is that a Kardashev Type 4 civilization is able to harness the power of an entire universe. We wouldn't be able to detect this by definition, since they exist outside of our perceived reality. At first glance, this seems to be a useless theory, since it's not refutable. But it lends itself to a belief system: by studying the universe, we gain an understanding of whatever created it…

I don't understand how this is any different from believing in God.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#16

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

Another answer to the Fermi paradox is that a Kardashev Type 4 civilization is able to harness the power of an entire universe. We wouldn't be able to detect this by definition, since they exist outside of our perceived reality. At first glance, this seems to be a useless theory, since it's not refutable. But it lends itself to a belief system: by studying the universe, we gain an understanding of whatever created it…

> But why do humans find this idea so seductive? It's because of an underlying loneliness: we want to believe that we are connected with the universe in some fashion, that our existence has a point [...]

No. It's simply that statistically, we can't believe we are the first, nor that we are unique. It would be (statistically) extremely odd if we were, and there is a bias against anthropo-centric theories.

Heck, I'd be happier if we are alone (less risk and more free land), but if we appear to be, that seems odd, and worthy of investigation. No?

EDIT: Why do you claim to speak for all our hopes/dreams/desires? "We need this" or "We want that". Frankly, that's a little collectivist and creepy.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the advantage of using gravity waves?

I was about to comment to state that there is no advantage because both gravitational waves and electromagnetic radiation travel at the same speed: "c". But then it struck me, maybe there will be one advantage, EM can be absorbed, blocked and warped while gravitational waves are not affected by anything, thus guaranteed to deliver the message(?)

You could also use neutrinos for the same reasons and they have the advantage that it's a lot easier to emit them as a beam instead of omnidirectional waves.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#18

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

Communication is a red herring; the actual Fermi paradox is why huge sections of the night sky aren't black[0] due to all the stars being enclosed by Dyson spheres. Or, for that matter, why the planet hasn't been eaten by von Neumann swarms yet.

0: technically a uniform dim infrared of waste heat

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#19

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

If you want to communicate with an alien civilization you'd have to emit some kind of signal for a long period of time in order to ensure that they will receive it. Gravitational waves last for an instant and then you've missed them.

Even if you've established communication with another civilization, using gravitational waves to carry on chatting seems like an awful waste of resources. The only scenario that seems plausible for using them is some kind of an SOS signal in which case you ensure that it will reach the vastness of the universe and hope that one of the receiving folks would be able to decode it. But then again that would take billion of years.

Re: The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves (2017) [video]

#20

I wonder if gravity wave detection could be ever be precise enough for communication. I wonder this because it occurs to me that one possible answer to Fermi's paradox is that aliens don't use Radio or other EM to chat. And maybe they don't leak it because they move energy and information around more efficiently than we do.

Another answer to the Fermi paradox is that a Kardashev Type 4 civilization is able to harness the power of an entire universe. We wouldn't be able to detect this by definition, since they exist outside of our perceived reality. At first glance, this seems to be a useless theory, since it's not refutable. But it lends itself to a belief system: by studying the universe, we gain an understanding of whatever created it…

This wouldn't really solve the paradox as it implies there are zero type 0, 1, 2 and 3 civilizations that we can detect in our Universe, which is still statistically odd.
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