What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#121

Post by chrisseaton » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

ppod wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at this poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/docume... The voters of all parties support these policies. What is "pandering" in a democracy? The people are xenophobes, they are getting what they want.

This raises an interesting question: what happens to a democratic society when "the will of the people" embraces principles and ideas that are profoundly anti-democratic? I mean, it's hard to find a definition of "democracy" that would satisfy everyone but, intuitively, xenophobia and open hostility to visitors who clearly mean well and are contributing to the well-being of the community (Lucas was a Cambridge alumnu…

I think you're loading 'democracy' up with some extra values there that aren't really part of the definition. Democracy just means governed by the people. It doesn't mean liberal, or enlightened, or progressive, or open to visitors, or anything like that. Just governed by the people. The people can be left wing or right wing, progressive or regressive, whatever.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#122

Post by sbmthakur » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #97

analog31 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be even more fundamental: Good leaders emerge from a good democracy. Maybe what the Middle East needs is to copy from the constitutions of successful democracies. Even adopting just our First Amendment would be a decent start.

Democracy isn’t always the best form of government for a given population. I think all attempts to force it that have blown up are a good demonstration of this. It depends a lot on the culture, the would be leaders, etc. It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported.

Precisely. What proponents of "export democracy" forget is that it takes time to develop a democratic tradition. Democracy in the US and the UK is centuries old. In the case of France and Germany, it took bloodbaths to turn them into democracy in a short time. Not different to what happened in few Arab states.

In India(my home nation), we have a 70 years old democracy. It's broken but functioning. And hopefully, we will get there soon.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#123

Post by mmsimanga » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #116

mmsimanga wrote: post #40

I speak as an immigrant. I see a lot of comments not being too kind to people who aren't welcoming of immigrants. As a person, I actually do understand. Not everyone is going to like me. As an African I do wish some of this energy would be directed to the African leaders that make their countries so terrible that someone feels it is better to jump on a rickety boat in search of a better life. These African "leaders"…

Not sure about the UK, but here in the US, there’s been a consistent (since ~ WWII, at least) bipartisan effort to make sure those sorts of leaders run countries like yours. It’s unclear how voters here can make a difference: Arguably, things were worse under Obama than W. That was while Hillary Clinton was running the state department. Trump seems to be intentionally blowing up the entire federal foreign policy appa…

Please, no need to apologise. We all in this world to do the best we can. I presume the American people have their own problems they need to solve and if you have some capacity to help us, I would rather you put pressure on dictators causing immigrants. That's my opinion. Others will have different opinions on where the energy should be spent.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#124

Post by Cyph0n » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #80

Cyph0n wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to give examples of good leaders in the Middle East? Keep in mind that the only countries in MENA that currently have a democratically elected leader are Tunisia and Lebanon.

It may be even more fundamental: Good leaders emerge from a good democracy. Maybe what the Middle East needs is to copy from the constitutions of successful democracies. Even adopting just our First Amendment would be a decent start.

Are you kidding?

Do you really think that it's just about drafting a constitution? And do you think that Middle Eastern countries do not have the capability to write their own constitutions?

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#125

Post by cm2187 » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

ppod wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at this poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/docume... The voters of all parties support these policies. What is "pandering" in a democracy? The people are xenophobes, they are getting what they want.

This raises an interesting question: what happens to a democratic society when "the will of the people" embraces principles and ideas that are profoundly anti-democratic? I mean, it's hard to find a definition of "democracy" that would satisfy everyone but, intuitively, xenophobia and open hostility to visitors who clearly mean well and are contributing to the well-being of the community (Lucas was a Cambridge alumnu…

Democracy doesn't mean open borders.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#126

Post by waxwander » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #28

gpvos wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ad hominem.

Ad hominem is "you're an asshole and that's why you're wrong", not "you're wrong and that makes you an asshole".

I wouldn't be surprised that in addition to your ad hominem philosophy, you were also an uneducated toad.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#127

Post by js2 » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #36

I mean the British bureaucracy has an extremely well chronicled tradition of Kafkaesque obstinacy and causing chaos via slavish adherence to rules that long predates this issue right. I believe Douglas Adams used this fact as the basis for a series of books.

Also, Terry Gilliam's frustration with it boiled over into Brazil.

https://youtu.be/nWbIxFKtTmE

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#128

Post by Cyph0n » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #104

Cyph0n wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to give examples of good leaders in the Middle East? Keep in mind that the only countries in MENA that currently have a democratically elected leader are Tunisia and Lebanon.

Usually the ones who were proponents of national self-determination and/or assassinated: Yitzhak Rabin (Israel), Yasser Arafat (Palestine), Mohammad Mosaddegh (Iran, who the US deposed), Anwar Sadat (Egypt), Gamal Abdel Nasser (Egypt), Mohammed Daoud Khan (Afghanistan), Faisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud (Saudi Arabia).

That's not at a useful metric at all.

For example, most of the nationalist/Kemalist leaders were brutal autocrats.

I'd argue that the best among them was Borguiba, but I suppose you've never heard of him.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#129

Post by cm2187 » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #14

Anti-immigration people in various countries often argue that they just want to prevent “bad ones” coming in, they’re not looking to throw out the “good ones”. The reality is that there’s no leniency for perceived good immigrants as these people imagine, and it’s just getting worse as immigration policies are tightened across Europe. Officials are under pressure to refuse as many applications as they can, and it’s ea…

I don't think what triggered Brexit was "bad immigration". The wave of immigration that triggered the reaction was mostly a polish immigration that integrated well. I think the problem was rather too much immigration.

Re: What happens if you mistakenly apply for British citizenship?

#130

Post by aluren » Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #36

I mean the British bureaucracy has an extremely well chronicled tradition of Kafkaesque obstinacy and causing chaos via slavish adherence to rules that long predates this issue right. I believe Douglas Adams used this fact as the basis for a series of books.

"Arthur reached out for the bedside light, not expecting it to come on. To his surprise it did. This appealed to Arthur’s sense of logic. Since the Electricity Board cut him off without fail every time he paid his bill, it seemed only reasonable that they should leave him connected when he didn’t. Sending them money obviously only drew attention to yourself."

-from So Long and Thanks for All the Fish