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U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#51

Post by joe_the_user »

merinowool wrote: post #45
joe_the_user wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are an issue and enforceability is an issue. If a largish group of users could create end-to-end encryption not with a single company but with "readily available materials", then stopping it could be harder. So it's a combination of state dictate and the practical ability of users to defy that. This isn't saying I'm optimistic, I'm rather pessimistic on any ability of a wide home-grown encrypted-messaging milieu…

Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs. On the next stop and search you would only had to handover your phone. If police password will not work it will be confiscated. If encryption software is found you go in the dock. It is the future. Society accepted ridiculous laws to jail people for having a plant, they'll accept jailing for programs. Only terrorists, thieves and adul…

Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs.

Well, then clearly it would quickly become ubiquitous. I mean, if a war on encryption that was just like the war on drugs were to be launched, why my local stream bed might "place burned passwords here" on the tin-can that currently reads "used needles here." (put there by the other homeless people).

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#52

Post by realusername »

merinowool wrote: post #45
joe_the_user wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are an issue and enforceability is an issue. If a largish group of users could create end-to-end encryption not with a single company but with "readily available materials", then stopping it could be harder. So it's a combination of state dictate and the practical ability of users to defy that. This isn't saying I'm optimistic, I'm rather pessimistic on any ability of a wide home-grown encrypted-messaging milieu…

Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs. On the next stop and search you would only had to handover your phone. If police password will not work it will be confiscated. If encryption software is found you go in the dock. It is the future. Society accepted ridiculous laws to jail people for having a plant, they'll accept jailing for programs. Only terrorists, thieves and adul…

> Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs

It's too late for that, every machine, every browser, every user is using encryption software all the time.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#53

Post by Phlarp »

realusername wrote: post #52
merinowool wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs. On the next stop and search you would only had to handover your phone. If police password will not work it will be confiscated. If encryption software is found you go in the dock. It is the future. Society accepted ridiculous laws to jail people for having a plant, they'll accept jailing for programs. Only terrorists, thieves and adul…

> Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs It's too late for that, every machine, every browser, every user is using encryption software all the time.

"It's too late to criminalize prostitution, every is already having sex"

"It's too late to criminalize possession of drugs. Half the country takes pharmaceuticals!"

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#54

Post by [deleted] »

mjevans wrote: post #4

I think it has become abundantly clear that a fully peer to peer, encryption required (non-optional), no single central server infrastructure solution is the answer. No points to tap. No point in tapping the data. If they want to capture conversations it's time to go back to the proper old ways of actually spying on high-value targets.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#55

Post by ekianjo »

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #11
mjevans wrote: post #4

I think it has become abundantly clear that a fully peer to peer, encryption required (non-optional), no single central server infrastructure solution is the answer. No points to tap. No point in tapping the data. If they want to capture conversations it's time to go back to the proper old ways of actually spying on high-value targets.

This is a case of the government trying to force Facebook to essentially strip out their technology; saying technology is the solution here is kinda ignorant of the actual issue

technology owned by a single company you can coerce is the issue.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#56

Post by badminton1 »

mjevans wrote: post #4

I think it has become abundantly clear that a fully peer to peer, encryption required (non-optional), no single central server infrastructure solution is the answer. No points to tap. No point in tapping the data. If they want to capture conversations it's time to go back to the proper old ways of actually spying on high-value targets.

It is not the answer.

What are the building blocks for encryption?

1) An cryptographic algorithm

2) Some form of key generation

3) A software implementation of 1) and 2)

4) A binary distribution of 3)

5) A computer that executes 4)

In practice, chances are those 5 are all rigged. They are rigged because you have so far trusted:

- That there are no tricks in the algorithm or its practical implementation

- That there are no tricks in the key generation algorithm or its practical implementation

- Hundreds of contributors to the software implementation of those algorithms

- The guy that compiled the software into binary form and distributed it

- The compiler used to compile the software and all the libraries and dependencies the software has

- Hardware manufacturers

So, common sense tells me that because you have trusted so many people, in practice, it is very unlikely you can have end-to-end encryption or any real ambition to have privacy.

This does not even consider more aspects, like your operating system, your sources of entropy, etc.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#57

Post by ekianjo »

madeofpalk wrote: post #16
seorphates wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? You kind of lost me. Isn't the actual issue math?

The issue is laws. A country that's going to mandate backdoors/access to such communications, are going to outlaw communication methods they can't backdoor. Say Apple makes a federated end-to-end encrypted messenger app, the government will still go to Apple and say "let us read all the messages, otherwise you can't sell your devices". THAT is the problem, and it can't be solved by more technology and shouting "BLOCK…

Its not laws since the US government and probably others have already shown with the NSA and the like that they have no respect whatsoever for the existing laws and nobody actually seemed to care one bit about that.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#58

Post by realusername »

Phlarp wrote: post #53
realusername wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possession of encryption software could be treated the same as possession of drugs It's too late for that, every machine, every browser, every user is using encryption software all the time.

"It's too late to criminalize prostitution, every is already having sex" "It's too late to criminalize possession of drugs. Half the country takes pharmaceuticals!"

I fail to see the point, without encryption, there's no modern web, no e-commerce, no smartphones, absolutely everything relies on it like water. Unless you want to go back to pre-2000's technology of course.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#59

Post by newnewpdro »

mjevans wrote: post #4

I think it has become abundantly clear that a fully peer to peer, encryption required (non-optional), no single central server infrastructure solution is the answer. No points to tap. No point in tapping the data. If they want to capture conversations it's time to go back to the proper old ways of actually spying on high-value targets.

Even if you got to that level of encryption, the devices themselves forming the Ps in P2P will become the tap points.

Nobody has a 100% open smartphone stack from the baseband up to the application.

Re: U.S. government seeks Facebook help to wiretap Messenger

#60

Post by sergers »

SN76477 wrote: post #24
mjevans wrote: post #4

I think it has become abundantly clear that a fully peer to peer, encryption required (non-optional), no single central server infrastructure solution is the answer. No points to tap. No point in tapping the data. If they want to capture conversations it's time to go back to the proper old ways of actually spying on high-value targets.

Reevaluate the value of the target. I don't know what government is doing snooping on facebook messenger. I would be blindsided if real crime was happening that way.

BBM was very popular for illicit purposes when it was in its heyday at RIM.

People moved onto other messengers like WhatsApp for those purposes.

Heck people use snapchat expiring messages to relay info on illicit activities.

It is not farfetched at all people are using FB messenger, signal, anything for that purpose.

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