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NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#461

Post by duxup »

alexgmcm wrote: post #408
pfisch wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would cause a crazy economic implosion in the education sector. Anything like that would need to be done very gradually or else there would be massive layoffs at every university all at once.

I agree but we must also realise the amount of struggle and suffering the current system causes to graduates. In general it's a lot easier to see the flaws of a new proposal than take notice of the problems with the status quo. So doing things really gradually also has a cost.

Short term the costs to those you describe as suffering will be significant too...such as no options.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#462

Post by aquamongoose »

ralmidani wrote: post #419

Why medical school and not, say, engineering or economics or math? I value having good physicians (my father is one), but medicine is not the only worthwhile human endeavor. Edit: Also, at least in my state (Michigan) there seems to be no shortage of medical students (we went from 4 med schools to 7 earlier in the decade). The real bottleneck is residency programs.

Maybe because PhD programs in those fields already are free at every university (in fact, they pay you a stipend).

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#463

Post by mdorazio »

talltimtom wrote: post #425
avip wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always replace "free" with "I'm paying for you". I don't know what's "obvious" about me paying your tuition fees. For once, I may be happy to fund your auto-mechanic studies as I know I'll need you to fix my car. But if you're studying ancient Akkadian I'm less inclined to pay your bills.

That is like saying you only want to pay taxes towards the roads you drive on yourself. Would you be better off if all publicly funded roads where instead private and required you to pay tolls per usage? You would defiantly get an bill more matching your usage, and people who don’t drive would pay less. But it at least feels like we are better off with public roads because they all add value to society as a whole. Th…

You've basically just described Dallas (although it's mostly just the freeways that have tolls), which a lot of Americans seem to be fine with.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#464

Post by maxerickson »

kurthr wrote: post #351
nostromo wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a pattern in America. People call for X to be more affordable > government subsidizes X > X absorbs all subsidies and becomes even more expensive > people call for X to be socialized. Maybe instead we should start to unwind student financing. For example: let students discharge student loans via bankruptcy. That would give financiers pause and would put an upper bound on what many universities could…

Woah there... govt subsidizes what? This isn't about subsidies (except for loan guarantees), it's about unsecured credit and debt that can't be discharged in bankruptcy. That (like credit card spending, 8 year car loans, and payday lending) is a recipe for rising prices and high eventual bankruptcy rstes, but it's not govt subsidy. It is regulatory capture.

The government backing a huge portion of the loans and creating special treatment for the loans are both, ya know, subsidies. They are slightly indirect.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#465

Post by windows_tips »

chimeracoder wrote: post #314
oillio wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanism by which you default on a loan is bankruptcy. If you can't discharge a loan in bankruptcy, you can't default on it. Some people never make enough money to pay it off, after which the government will pay the loan off after a few years. The lender gets payed anyway. These are risk free loans for lenders.

> The mechanism by which you default on a loan is bankruptcy. If you can't discharge a loan in bankruptcy, you can't default on it. This is absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. Defaulting on a loan means that the borrower has failed to repay according to the agreed-upon terms. > Some people never make enough money to pay it off, after which the government will pay the loan off after a few years. The lender gets payed…

>The lender is not guaranteed to be paid their principal back.

This may apply for personal loans, where real money is given up; but, it's not really correct to call a bank, the originators of most private student loans, as far as I know, a 'lender'; as, banks don't lend their own money, but create new money through promissory notes.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#466

Post by [deleted] »

h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #420
lazerwalker wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree. This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. As an individual, a well-rounded education is a life-enriching thing, even if it doesn't directly tie into your professional career. As an overall society, havi…

>> This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. That's not a "view of the world", that's _objective reality_. There aren't enough jobs for those folks to take, so they end up at proverbial McDonalds. Those that do get jobs often don't get a wage that a degree that's in higher demand would command. That's the world that already exists, you can't will it away no matter how you finance people's education.

[deleted]

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#467

Post by beat »

chimeracoder wrote: post #299
beat wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is Medicare paying more than similar systems in other countries, or less, or about the same? And if Medicare is paying more than, say, Japan, but it's still not enough to cover the costs in America, what is going on structurally with the other 60% of the medical system? Because there's something structurally broken here. It's not mere profiteering - it's more like a feedback loop. For-profit medicine works effecti…

> So is Medicare paying more than similar systems in other countries, or less, or about the same? You can't compare the raw dollar values because the economies aren't the same - $5 in New York doesn't mean the same as $5 in Tulsa, OK or $5 in London. That's why things like PPP comparisons exist (except you can't use a PPP comparison in a specific vertical like this to answer your question, because that is the very qu…

For the country I'm singling out, it's Japan, because of the massive structural parity between the US and Japanese systems - both using private employer-driven insurance, private providers, and government subsidy for those who can't afford their own insurance. And both are modern first world countries with a first world standard of living and economic complexity.

Here's the thing that gets me... the US is the only first world country with either our costs (most are about half as much per capita) or our massive coverage gap (most provide universal coverage). This suggests to me that it's not so much there's a right way to do it, as there is a wrong way, because a wide variety of other approaches, from mostly-private (Japan) to mostly-socialized (Sweden) are all working just fine. It's only the US that is so broken.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#468

Post by dionidium »

AngryData wrote: post #279
monocasa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK. The same thought process led me to not being able to complete college due to financial reasons. Despite being emancipated, FAFSA still considers you a dependent until you're 24. I was told that only with documentation of leaving an abusive household would a dependency exception grant be applied. So according to FAFSA I was supposed to use all this money that I didn't have to pay for college. By 24 I had dropped…

I think not being able to default on your student loans is the main factor in rising costs. There is no reason not to give out a student loan of any amount if it is guaranteed money. And there are many people who struggled to graduate highschool, or people who have no idea what they want to do in life in any way, that are getting crazy large loans to go to very expensive and demanding schools and and are very likely…

> "I think not being able to default on your student loans is the main factor in rising costs."

The law responsible for this situation (the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act) was passed in 2005. Prices had already been rising for decades. I'm not saying it hasn't had an effect, but it can't possibly be the "main factor," because it literally didn't exist when prices started to rise.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#469

Post by dionidium »

talltimtom wrote: post #425
avip wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always replace "free" with "I'm paying for you". I don't know what's "obvious" about me paying your tuition fees. For once, I may be happy to fund your auto-mechanic studies as I know I'll need you to fix my car. But if you're studying ancient Akkadian I'm less inclined to pay your bills.

That is like saying you only want to pay taxes towards the roads you drive on yourself. Would you be better off if all publicly funded roads where instead private and required you to pay tolls per usage? You would defiantly get an bill more matching your usage, and people who don’t drive would pay less. But it at least feels like we are better off with public roads because they all add value to society as a whole. Th…

> "That is like saying you only want to pay taxes towards the roads you drive on yourself."

People who use roads should be paying a lot more for their usage and they should be paying much more directly. So, in short, yes.

The current system is far too diffuse, masks enormous externalities, and generates incredible waste.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#470

Post by [deleted] »

h4b4n3r0 wrote: post #420
lazerwalker wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's just, like, your opinion, man. Society certainly does not need so many graduates in English Literature: there are only so many open positions at McDonalds, and they as a rule do not require a degree. This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. As an individual, a well-rounded education is a life-enriching thing, even if it doesn't directly tie into your professional career. As an overall society, havi…

>> This strikes me as a deeply sad view of the world. That's not a "view of the world", that's _objective reality_. There aren't enough jobs for those folks to take, so they end up at proverbial McDonalds. Those that do get jobs often don't get a wage that a degree that's in higher demand would command. That's the world that already exists, you can't will it away no matter how you finance people's education.

[deleted]
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