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Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

nakedsecurity.sophos.com

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Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#151
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's concerning, because it's incredibly easy to feed sensitive and/or valuable data to your phone without it being deliberate. One could argue that that's Google's (and many others') business model. Practically speaking, this is not a long jump to suggesting "don't think any banned thoughts", which obviously gets ugly fast.

Practically, it’s quite a leap from regulating privacy controls of a portable, globally connected node (your phone) to thought control. Just my hypothesis, but while the tech community might recognize the theoretical ideals of a libertarian future, the masses don’t agree. I’d bet that those who actually have something more deeply incriminating to hide comprise a majority (or a significant minority) of those who inten…

And yet somehow, it doesn't matter that these tools will be used by deeply compromised people.

US police officer Daniel Holtzclaw used his position as police officer and specifically search power to rape women. [4] It took years before the police was even willing to investigate the claims. YEARS, plural.

Who runs child services ? Pedophiles, at least in Norway [1] (and yes, that guy had used his power to get children "allocated" to him, and of course, the government decided to let that guy go, immigrant mothers however, must lose their children and get beaten up more than once in the progress. Same for the kids by the way. Why ? Well the decision was made by someone who "enjoyed child porn" for > 20 years)

The Australian police is at least partly run by criminal torturers [2] (note, aside from this happening, they also have a bit of a reputation that they're doing this, so don't think this is an isolated incident).

In the Netherlands, mental patients were thrown in solitary, and the government "can't find anyone who ever did that". [3]

In Belgium, the most notorious unsolved crime of the country, the "Brabant killers"/"Nijvel gang", famous for extremely violent attacks against supermarkets who killed almost 40 people in the process, is strongly suspected to at least partially consist of police officers, maybe entirely. [5] (one of the suspects is an ex-policeman, and the reactions of the police to the investigation defy all reason)

What is difficult to see is that, of course, positions of power attract criminals. That means a lot of criminals work for the police. A lot of paedophiles work for schools, or as priests (though not any more), and for child care, and child institutions. A lot of bullies, racists, torturers and rapists work for mental health institutions. Besides, does anyone seriously think so many paedophiles worked for the church because they liked Jesus ?

Governments don't want global thought control. Governments have police/military working for them and they pay them ... in status, in control they get over others. They want to get the criminals working for the police. That means that it's a system explicitly designed to let these people in, and the price is that the police, child care, mental health, ... bully, torture and rape.

The government can then as described in the Australia example, use this as a weapon against individuals, and they frequently do. That's why governments want to expand this power, and reduce the options people have to complain about these actions.

That's why the power of these institutions must be tightly controlled and minimized, and they must be prevented from exercising such powers without tight oversight.

The government doesn't want to do that, because that would limit their own power as well. Look at the australian case mentioned above: these laws mean that the government can just destroy individuals that are a threat or a nuisance to them. On the other hand it takes away one of the main reasons people become police officers: they want power, and of course people who want power ... use it. Here's some links to the most egregious cases.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/norways_hidden_s...

[2] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-03/melbourne-police-on-vi...

[3] https://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CAT/Shared%20Documents...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Holtzclaw

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabant_killers

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#152
post #122
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted my source for this is The Newsroom , but IIRC contempt of court is a tool that can only be used coercively, and not punitively. In other words, if you refuse to give your password, you could be detained indefinitely for contempt. But if you forget your password, you should be released immediately. Obviously that's open to interpretation and abuse, I'm just saying contempt would only be correctly applied here…

refuse to give your password: detained indefinitely forget your password: should be released immediately How could that possibly work? The court has no way of knowing whether someone is refusing to comply, versus being unable to because they don't know (or never knew) a secret. Because of this, it seems very likely that any claim of having forgotten (or having never known) something will be treated as contempt.

Every system builds on the humans implementing it. So in other words, this system gives judges the power to imprison anyone indefinitely.

These guys, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#153
post #85
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why did you destroy your phone?" "I was angry at losing a game of Pocket Tanks and I have anger management issues"

Court’s have never seen an excuse like that before. They’ll never figure it out!

Fortunately criminal courts require proof. If you have a lawyer ... this won't happen (probably).

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#154

The article buries the lede pretty badly. >The government’s explanatory note says that the Bill could force a manufacturer to ... install government software on it If the bill passes, using a phone purchased in Australia is no longer secure. I know my security threat model excludes manufacturer-installed root kits - is there a reasonable strategy for mitigating this risk? Buying a phone in the US and importing it you…

> Definitely planning on backdooring devices and reading the messages pre-encryption and post-decryption.

They actually explicitly said that was the aim. From https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/consultations/Documents/expla... :

> This includes accessing communications at points where it is not encrypted.

I am an Australian, and I have been listening to the Minister for months tell everybody they were going to do something about encryption, but then categorically ruling out weakening crypto with back doors. I wondered what he was on about. Now I know I guess.

In case it's not obvious, they aren't just targeting phones. Anything with an app store or automatic updates is fair game. So this includes Microsoft updating Windows and Edge, Google updating Chrome and Chromebooks, and of course all of Apple's products. They don't have the expertise to write the software bugs to do this of course - but the bill allows for this by making provision for forcing the tech companies to provide whatever technical assistance is required (and encourages them to go further by providing voluntary assistance).

I see a few comments here that seem to think that encryption on (eg, Signal, PGP, encrypted hard disks, bimetrics) will save you. The entire point of these provisions is to get to the data when it is not decrypted, which it must be if you want to use it. Nothing will save you on these devices - once the bug is installed they are an open book. Possibly more open than you imagine, as they can turn on the microphone, camera, gps without you knowing.

Since there are commercial organisations they are targeting, I expect once they roll over they will do it in the most efficient way possible. Which is to say I expect it will be automated - something like the law enforcement agency will provide a MAC or some other unique identified and a few minutes later the bug is installed and sending data back.

What that means it is will be highly centralised, meaning you can compromise just a few people and/or pieces of equipment and you have the keys to the entire thing. A spy machine that can track everyone - it's an impossibly attractive target. I can't imagine state actors like Russia or China not to turning a gift like that from the democracies into something useful.

They are arguably sticking to the letter their promise not to back door encryption, but in reality they are legislating a centralised system that can see even banking password, everything you read, and everything you say, and everywhere you have been. It's pretty much the same outcome.

Way to go, guys.

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions both child abusers and terrorists yet the laws will rarely be used for that. Mandatory metadata retention was also bought in for the same reasons and has barely appeared as evidence in any subsequent cases, despite >300,000 warrantless metadata requests last year, overseen by a handful of public servants behind closed doors, in a country of 25 million people. Another very concerning law is about…

Regarding your example of this person being forced into a mental institution, are you able to provide a source? I'm interested in learning more especially as I'm living in Australia, this is quite terrifying indeed.

There's a gofundme.com page [0], but I'd recommend reading this article (by a queensland lawyer) titled 'Fixated Folk' [1]

[0] https://www.gofundme.com/barrister-needed-for-fiona-wilson

[1] https://www.nystlegal.com.au/2017/05/26/fixated-folk/

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the average passer by, John/Jane Doe, doesn’t on average care enough about the abstract reasons why they should withhold judgment, they instead react along the line of “well if they are being investigated they are probably guilty” which is results in the public typically judging anyone dragged into the judicial process. So it’s actually inverted outcomes from what you described, secret is normally…

Completely agree, most trials should be reported fearlessly after completion and not have speculation or the court of public opinion loom over the judge/jury beforehand. Yet it seems to be abused here in order to protect cozy relationships between a certain big business and the government. Whistleblowers proven correct should be held up on a pedestal and highly respected, not thrown to the wolves with little chance o…

There seems to be a rather simple solution. Trials must occur within four weeks. Prosecution is not allowed extensions to this so long as the accused is charged with a crime and in custody or released on conditions. Any charges not tried for within thirty days are automatically dismissed, expunged, and the defendant paid compensatory damages out of the prosecutor's budget. Defendants may petition for limited extensions on the explicitly defined grounds of preparing a defense.

This will obviously never happen because it's far more lucrative to draw trials out for years.

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#158

The article buries the lede pretty badly. >The government’s explanatory note says that the Bill could force a manufacturer to ... install government software on it If the bill passes, using a phone purchased in Australia is no longer secure. I know my security threat model excludes manufacturer-installed root kits - is there a reasonable strategy for mitigating this risk? Buying a phone in the US and importing it you…

> Definitely planning on backdooring devices and reading the messages pre-encryption and post-decryption. They actually explicitly said that was the aim. From https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/consultations/Documents/expla... : > This includes accessing communications at points where it is not encrypted. I am an Australian, and I have been listening to the Minister for months tell everybody they were going to do somethi…

> once they roll over they will do it in the most efficient way possible

Yes. To be clear, Telstra has installed devices of mass surveillance. So, this new bill is about undoing the 'snowden world' as you suggest.

From this article: https://theintercept.com/2016/10/23/endace-mass-surveillance...

This clearly shows how an Australian company was giving assistance in the construction of the hardware for a NZ company, Endace: https://theintercept.com/document/2016/10/23/medusa-weekly-s...

"Both prototype boards have been returned to Sourceman in Aussie with DDR memory issues and PCB baord issues" [Their typo].

Telstra has Endace hardware installed for the purpose of monitoring Australians: https://theintercept.com/document/2016/10/23/sprint-endace-l...

"The packet capture abilities... sold to Telstra"

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#159

A government's ability to control its population weakens as subversive technology evolves. The law is always behind the state of the art. This frustrates officials so much they react with incredulity and throw childish tantrums. In order to maintain control, the government must ask for more and more power and become more and more totalitarian. It's like a politico-technological arms race. What will be the end of this…

Technology can already more or less deal with this. Encryption plus a hidden volume (the existence of which cannot be proven) provides the ability for someone to 'unlock' the phone but still not provide access to the real data. It would be quite difficult to ban encryption without causing a ton of other problems.

But the argument being made is that in the face of such technology, the government will make increasingly drastic laws to compensate. E.g. require you use vulnerable phone software approved by them, and allow inferences of guilt if you use something else.

Re: Australians who won't unlock their phones could face ten years in jail

#160

A government's ability to control its population weakens as subversive technology evolves. The law is always behind the state of the art. This frustrates officials so much they react with incredulity and throw childish tantrums. In order to maintain control, the government must ask for more and more power and become more and more totalitarian. It's like a politico-technological arms race. What will be the end of this…

No need to ban encryption, you just create a state sponsored encryption system on a chip, and if anyone is caught trying to break/hack it you get life in prison / death penalty. /s

I read something similar to that in "Rainbows End: A Novel with One Foot in the Future" by Vernor Vinge. A really interesting take on the soon to be future of 2025.

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