End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#41

Post by elorant » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #2

>There is almost no work -- the main sources of income are beekeeping and a bit of forestry. There's no tourism, even though, according to UNESCO, the air here is cleaner than almost anywhere else in Europe. One of the greatest things the tech industry could do to decrease the economic inequality due to location would be to embrace remote work. Imagine what even having 10 developers living in the village could do for…

As long as the village has proper infrastructure. That is a decent Internet connection (in Greek counties average connection speed is about 3Mbps so forget about teleconferencing and such), decent mobile connection, frequent public transportation, adequate medical facilities (a lot of municipalities have understaffed hospitals) and equally adequately staffed schools. In my estimates, more than 80% of the country outside big cities fails in one or more of those factors.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#42

Post by shubb » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #24

I'm slightly salty: Hey, at least Greece is relevant. That Golden Ancient Age of Greece bought it relevance, support and sympathy for all eternity. I'm from Romania, a poorer member of the EU that faces an even greater demographic crisis. You don't hear a peep about us in the news, except for recently, when the corrupt government started beating up protestors who were asking for stronger anti-corruption measures. Any…

Greece makes headlines because the narrative there is that, 'if todays crisis goes wrong enough, Greece will pull the Euro and the EU down with it'. Romania just doesn't have that level of risk to everyone else assosiated with it I guess because it doesn't owe enough money.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#43

Post by _xzxj » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #27

_xzxj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the US Democratic party is associated with economic liberalism doesnt mean it isnt right-wing.

The US democratic party wants free welfare, free education for everyone: none of this has been historically supported by "right-wing" movements. So it's a difficult to support your statement.

What? Economic liberalism is about the free market, private property, reduced regulation, etc. etc. Which are traditionally the pro-business republican positions that one of the above commentators mentioned as leaving the republican party because of Trump.

I don't know where these people have gone, maybe they went to the Democratic party, but collectivist ideas like welfare, free education, and single-payer healthcare aren't really "economic liberal" positions.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#44

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #34

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda. 1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program > They lived way above their means You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean.…

I'm not German and I don't see why it would have anything to do with that.

"Living about their means" is what happens when their debt levels grow exponentially:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7KXHAuORi4w/TbS897oFTGI/AAAAAAAAA...

in what world do you think this is sustainable? The US can get away with huge amount of debts because they have the dollar, which the most trusted international currency for virtually every commodity trade. Other countries don't have that luxury.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#45

Post by ben_w » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

_xzxj wrote: post #18

shard972 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liberalism itself isn't right wing at all. Consider that in the USA at the moment liberalism is most concentrated within the democratic party as most neo-liberals have left the party post Trump. Steve Schmidt and Joe Scarborough are two obvious examples of this shift.

Just because the US Democratic party is associated with economic liberalism doesnt mean it isnt right-wing.

I second this. Both Democrat and Republican parties are much too right wing to get elected in the UK. I am aware that it may seem surprising that Obamacare is too right-wing, but compare it to the NHS.

Likewise, one of the things which makes no sense to me about American politics are sentences like “liberals want to take away our guns” (sarcastic use of the name?) in response to limited control; in comparison, the UK is so anti-gun even the police don’t usually have any.

One of the other left-right splits we see in American news is on the topic of gay marriage (left-wing pro, right-wing anti). In the UK, gay marriage was legalised by the most right-wing of the major parties.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#46

Post by puranjay » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #14

ravingraven wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine what even having 10 developers living in the village could do for its economy. I guarantee that this village has no internet (other than 3/4G with a data cap).

You think that the Apple that built the $5bn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Park can't drag a handful of pitiful fiber optic cables 500 miles to where they're needed, if they really wanted? :)

I don't even think it's about dragging fiber cables. I live in India and in the last one year, a single company's efforts - Reliance Jio - have ensured that I get decent 4G connectivity nearly everywhere. Price is a non-issue - I pay less than $3/month for about 2GB/day of downloads. If I needed more, I wouldn't have to pay more than $10/month.

India isn't exactly the most advanced country. Can't imagine why internet would be a problem in any affluent country anymore.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#47

Post by dantheman » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #34

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda. 1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program > They lived way above their means You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean.…

Why did they need an austerity program if they were fine?

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#48

Post by elorant » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

diminish wrote: post #22

At the end what are structural changes which will grow the Greek economy? From Bulgaria to Estonia, the east European economies are far more competitive and innovative and could still suck the growth out of Greece in the small room left around Germany's giant and productive manufacturing economy. Greece is nowhere a rising technology star neither. I guess Greece will find an equilibrium at a lower income per capita.

Long story short, facilitation of private sector. If I need one month of red tape to open a new business and have to face a mountain of absurd taxes from day one it's game over. Social security for example is obligatory and it's a huge hurdle for young people who want to open a business and start making money. It creates a lot of insecurity if you have no idea whether your business will succeed to have to pay a monthly fee for social security which if you don't they might confiscate your bank account.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#49

Post by tonyedgecombe » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

onli wrote: post #34

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda. 1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program > They lived way above their means You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean.…

Greek debt was running at 100% of GDP since the nineties, if they had a better handle on it then the economic crisis wouldn't have hit them so hard.

https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gdp

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#50

Post by sgt101 » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

Most greek government debt before the crisis was generated in the preeurozone era, between 1984 and 1990 - ~40%->~90% gdp. This happened before the euro was created and before Greece joined. Private debt spiked in the Euro era - Banks ! This debt has been socialised by the aid packages, this would be fine if it was socialised across the eurozone, where the failure of supervision occurred and where the loot was stashed, but instead it's been loaded on a Greek economy that patently can't (and eventually won't) pay. What I believe is being hoped for is that by then there will be fiscal union and Greek debt will be manageable within that framework, until then, screw the Greek people. But be clear - the normal people of Greece were not responsible for this and their suffering is unjust.