End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#31

Post by andromedavision » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #16

ravingraven wrote: post #7

>It's surprising because economic liberalism doesn't have any deep roots in Greece. There is no liberal party. The Greeks traditionally think in terms of left and right. A) There is a liberal party in Greece (just as much as there is a liberal party in Germany or France), the people just don't vote for it. B) Liberalism and "laissez-faire thinking" are right wing, I can't see another way of thinking about that. I am…

Liberalism itself isn't right wing at all. Consider that in the USA at the moment liberalism is most concentrated within the democratic party as most neo-liberals have left the party post Trump. Steve Schmidt and Joe Scarborough are two obvious examples of this shift.

Liberalism and the word liberty in and of itself no longer means anything concrete. Every side claims to defend it but in the midst of it all I'm reminded of the quote that those who give up a lottle liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. All who profess it end up being tyrannical.

I've disabused myself of the schpiel that is the concept of liberty. It means nothing today because is has been abused as a concept.

I like to think of it now as simply more state intervention vs less state intervention.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#32

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

ravingraven wrote: post #7

>It's surprising because economic liberalism doesn't have any deep roots in Greece. There is no liberal party. The Greeks traditionally think in terms of left and right. A) There is a liberal party in Greece (just as much as there is a liberal party in Germany or France), the people just don't vote for it. B) Liberalism and "laissez-faire thinking" are right wing, I can't see another way of thinking about that. I am…

[deleted]

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#33

Post by barking » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #24

I'm slightly salty: Hey, at least Greece is relevant. That Golden Ancient Age of Greece bought it relevance, support and sympathy for all eternity. I'm from Romania, a poorer member of the EU that faces an even greater demographic crisis. You don't hear a peep about us in the news, except for recently, when the corrupt government started beating up protestors who were asking for stronger anti-corruption measures. Any…

We don't hear much about Romania but we hear regularly in the news about Romanians, usually in connection with atm machines and aspects of the night time economy. :)

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#34

Post by onli » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #21

> turned Greece into a different country. They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

That's neoliberal propaganda.

1. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program

> They lived way above their means

You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean. A country can not "live above their means". It can have too much debts. That wasn't the case here.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#35

Post by pfortuny » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

guiriduro wrote: post #17

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

I'm not sure that's radically different from many other places. In Spain you have the common practice "enchufes" (plugged-in - somebody put in place by connections rather than ability), Italy too. Even supposedly enlightened Anglo-saxon economies have their old boys networks (especially board rooms), and everywhere they exhort the idea that networking is the way to get ahead (over say, education and objective blind i…

From my Greek friend's stories, I gather it is order of magnitudes larger there than in my home country (Spain). Yes, the custom exists but where you know that in Spain it happens "frequently", in Greece it seems to happen "always".

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#36

Post by oblio » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

barking wrote: post #33

oblio wrote: post #24

I'm slightly salty: Hey, at least Greece is relevant. That Golden Ancient Age of Greece bought it relevance, support and sympathy for all eternity. I'm from Romania, a poorer member of the EU that faces an even greater demographic crisis. You don't hear a peep about us in the news, except for recently, when the corrupt government started beating up protestors who were asking for stronger anti-corruption measures. Any…

We don't hear much about Romania but we hear regularly in the news about Romanians, usually in connection with atm machines and aspects of the night time economy. :)

You're not helping with my saltiness :D

:(

Anyway, I'll cut it out, since this whole topic and thread aren't really HN material.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#37

Post by antouank » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #23

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an…

> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it.

It's not black and white, for sure. I lived in Greece until my 27, I had the unfortunate idea to even invest and open a business in Greece, and then I left and worked in Germany and UK for the next 6 years as a software engineer. Yes, the difference is immense. Cannot emphasize it enough. I'd never go back if things remain as they are.

You're welcome to go live and work in Greece, then tell me if "clientelism" is the same everywhere.

> Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far.

You're in for a big surprise...

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#38

Post by onli » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #19

>With the help of French officials, Gerovasili wants to lay a new foundation for the Greek administration. I'm laughing at the irony of asking French official for administrative reforms. I mean each time in France the government tries an administrative reform we're either getting strikes and protests devolving in the usual riots or a reform that's either useless or make things worse. No reforms has succeeded to bring…

Plus, the french administration with its bureaucracy has to be the most ineffective in Europe. France has so much bureaucracy, it makes Germany (already overburdened with bureaucracy) look like an efficient market-oriented country.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#39

Post by arijo » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #23

antouank wrote: post #10

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs…

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an…

Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 - please resist the temptation of bad-mouthing Portugal before you understand more about it's current political, economical and social situation.

Re: End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis

#40

Post by nostalgeek » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

shard972 wrote: post #16

ravingraven wrote: post #7

>It's surprising because economic liberalism doesn't have any deep roots in Greece. There is no liberal party. The Greeks traditionally think in terms of left and right. A) There is a liberal party in Greece (just as much as there is a liberal party in Germany or France), the people just don't vote for it. B) Liberalism and "laissez-faire thinking" are right wing, I can't see another way of thinking about that. I am…

Liberalism itself isn't right wing at all. Consider that in the USA at the moment liberalism is most concentrated within the democratic party as most neo-liberals have left the party post Trump. Steve Schmidt and Joe Scarborough are two obvious examples of this shift.

> Liberalism itself isn't right wing at all.

Classical liberalism is considered right wing in Europe because most of the the classical liberals are also culturally conservative (against gay marriage ect...) and globalist. Although plenty of socialists are not that open either. It's just a weird mix and really depend on the situation of each countries.

The "far right" is also most of the time anti-liberal, and sometimes even adopt socialist stances on matters such as public administrations, anti-privatization, universal healthcare... while making immigration policies their first concern.

The politics of Europe and USA are very different at the national level. In Europe people change sides more often and there is room for a 3rd, 4th main party unlike the 2 party system in US.