NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students • Hacker News Board

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#371

Post by rrcaptain » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

pitaj wrote: post #295

moorhosj wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

== That would give financiers pause and would put an upper bound on what many universities could charge.== It would also limit the pool of people who could get a loan for college in the first place. Maybe we can take a page from other developed countries who don't seem to have the same problem. It seems to be a pattern in America where we act like a problem has no answers, meanwhile the rest of the world contains man…

Remember when college used to be cheap enough for people to afford working summers? I don't remember because that was before my time, but that was also before the subsidies and loans were made available by the feds. Turns out, if you dump money into an industry while increasing demand and not changing supply, prices will increase.

That was because states covered most of the budget. Austerity policies changed that. And supply and demand is not applicable to macroeconomics, which education is part of.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#372

Post by tribesman » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:32 AM UTC

aantix wrote: post #150

This is probably the other piece of the puzzle regarding the implementation of single payer healthcare. Because who in their right mind wants to sacrifice 16 years of earning potential, take on 500K of debt only to become an MD with long work days and now prices that are fixed with no other form of negotiation leverage in sight.

>Because who in their right mind wants to sacrifice 16 years of earning potential, take on 500K of debt only to become an MD with long work days and now prices that are fixed with no other form of negotiation leverage in sight.

Asians/Indians make most MDs in the US because being a doctor is valued a lot in their communities even if you've infinite debt, you still get respect.

Second, most doctors come from doctor families. They've already transversed the path once, and their kids can reuse the knowledge and connections.

So yea, my father is MD and he can easily support 16 years of MD education for me. If you don't have a family with similar resources, obviously either you can take debt which comes with enourmose stress/worries which decrease your chance to complete or not compete at all!

Individualistic people aren't going to find it easier to compete with community backed people.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Post by rrcaptain » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:34 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #227

pitaj wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College is expensive because so much money is available in the forms of subsidies and loans. If the federal government stopped guaranteeing loans, and cut back on other subsidies, the cost of college would be much much lower.

And of course schools need 2 or 3 administrators per faculty member, earning more than faculty "because they are more important" naturally.

You often do because the cost of administering financial aid and loan programs is much more than if the government simply funded education. The same applies to healthcare: you need dozens of administrators because you have dozens of insurers to deal with. Simplify the system so all costs are paid for by the state and your costs go down.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#374

Post by rrcaptain » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:36 AM UTC

justonepost wrote: post #236

pitaj wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College is expensive because so much money is available in the forms of subsidies and loans. If the federal government stopped guaranteeing loans, and cut back on other subsidies, the cost of college would be much much lower.

No, College is expensive because it's horribly inefficient. Professors are paid terribly.

College is inefficient because instead of just paying out of the taxpayers, we created a roundabout system of loans and banking that serves no one except shareholders.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:37 AM UTC

cncrnd wrote: post #362

Is anyone not going to med school because of debt? Not sure what problems this solves. For the long commitment that doctors make and the debt they take on, they receive basically guaranteed highly paying employment for as long as they wish. There's also a shortage of medical school spots, we can't create enough doctors. I think this is probably an attempt to compete with other medical schools for top students. NYU is…

> I think this is probably an attempt to compete with other medical schools for top students.

But what do they get from these top students? Clearly not tuition anymore!

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#376

Post by rrcaptain » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:38 AM UTC

cncrnd wrote: post #362

Is anyone not going to med school because of debt? Not sure what problems this solves. For the long commitment that doctors make and the debt they take on, they receive basically guaranteed highly paying employment for as long as they wish. There's also a shortage of medical school spots, we can't create enough doctors. I think this is probably an attempt to compete with other medical schools for top students. NYU is…

We can't create enough doctors because medical school is prohibitively expensive. Universal healthcare and universal higher education go hand in hand.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#377

Post by Joeri » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:40 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #220

pitaj wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College is expensive because so much money is available in the forms of subsidies and loans. If the federal government stopped guaranteeing loans, and cut back on other subsidies, the cost of college would be much much lower.

This seems to be a pattern in America. People call for X to be more affordable > government subsidizes X > X absorbs all subsidies and becomes even more expensive > people call for X to be socialized. Maybe instead we should start to unwind student financing. For example: let students discharge student loans via bankruptcy. That would give financiers pause and would put an upper bound on what many universities could…

To bring down cost you don’t bring down the subsidies, but you let the government negotiate price limits on subsidized goods and services.

This is how health care and college subsidies work in my country. The government negotiates with the universities and medical industry what the price and the subsidy level will be. Schools and health care can opt out of the subsidy scheme and shrink their market to the rich or opt in and have lower margins with higher quantities. Most choose to opt in, even the top tier.

The trick is using the negotiating power of government, which is something U.S. politicians are unwilling to do.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Post by wyattpeak » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 4:41 AM UTC

duxup wrote: post #361

AngryData wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think not being able to default on your student loans is the main factor in rising costs. There is no reason not to give out a student loan of any amount if it is guaranteed money. And there are many people who struggled to graduate highschool, or people who have no idea what they want to do in life in any way, that are getting crazy large loans to go to very expensive and demanding schools and and are very likely…

I think you're right, at the same time if allowed to walk from student loans... wouldn't we see a similar incentive on the student side? I would find it pretty tempting when graduating to ... default. You've got plenty of time to fish your way out of bankruptcy as you're young, you don't have much for assets or anything...

That seems fine to me. Banks are in the business of calculating risk on loans, they can work out under what conditions they're willing to loan money to students who have little to lose by declaring bankruptcy.

If they basically shut down all student funding, that doesn't seem like a huge problem either - it's a fairly bad model and I think society would benefit for from the pressure to find a better way to educate people.

It's a difficult question, it would have a lot of unpredictable knock-on effects. But subjecting the industry to market pressures seems a move in the right direction.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

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Post by kendallpark » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 5:05 AM UTC

aabajian wrote: post #4

This is amazing. I graduated from medical school two years ago with $300,000 in debt. I'm a software developer on the side and would love to stop residency to try a healthcare startup and/or pursue a research, but the risk is too great - I need the attending salary to pay off the debt.

> I'm a software developer on the side and would love to stop residency to try a healthcare startup and/or pursue a research, but the risk is too great - I need the attending salary to pay off the debt.

This is exactly why I pressed a giant pause button halfway through my MD to get a PhD in computer science. There was no other time I could do it. After 4th year? Too much debt; also looks bad for residencies to take time off. After PGY-1? Too much debt; would hurt me if I wanted to do a full residency. After residency? Too much debt; also that forces me to wait quite a few more years before pursuing my research/software dev ideas.

Right now I can manage the debt from the first two years with my graduate stipend + summer internship gigs in the industry. If I had waited even one more year to do this, the debt would have been be prohibitive.

Re: NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students

#380

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 5:08 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #152

jeffreybaird wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raise the income tax, create a VAT, kill the mortgage-interest tax deduction, add a Financial transaction tax, tax capital gains like normal income, stop subsidizing fossil fuel extraction, add a carbon tax, and lower the threshold for the inheritance tax and raise the percentage.

All that for a worthless degree in antaractic penguin studies from Shady St Univ. You still graduate unemployed, unskilled, but instead of you paying the debt, someone else does. Also, with no skin in the game, I’m sure college will get even less serious.

> Also, with no skin in the game, I’m sure college will get even less serious.

Or on the contrary, when students are no longer paying customers who have to be made happy, grading can get stricter