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Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

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Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#51

Post by microcolonel »

village-idiot wrote: post #8
lawlessone wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alcohol in particular is notorious for making depression worse. https://www.quitalcohol.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-and-suicid...

If alcohol was brand new, it likely would be a scheduled drug and very well controlled. It’s only allowed because it’s very old and well integrated to some societies.

Part of it is that the biochemical processes involved in producing ethanol are so straightforward that they are undergone in almost every fruit bowl and refrigerator, with or without anyone's knowledge.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#52

Post by rwnspace »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #43
wp381640 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1mg / kg (or just a little more) I only later learned more about dosages and found that the downsides are at higher (1.5mg/kg+) doses and with long re-dosing

I would barely feel anything at that dose and it would be incredibly short-spanned; more like cocaine. It's literally 75% of the dose for ~20% of the effects. Besides, if you would have read the article - they are mentioning dosages of 125mg. I would also be confident enough to say that MDMA is not as linear in dosages against body weight and _almost_surely_ it depends way more on your digestive than your body mass.…

I would suggest the quality of the drug matters far more than the digestive system. And that the difference between first-time experience and hundredth-time (which I don't think is a particularly healthy number of times to hit) is quite large.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#53

Post by Nursie »

fhood wrote: post #32
mnm1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they're not comparable because MDMA is much, much safer than either alcohol or cigarettes. We're talking millions of deaths a year for alcohol and cigarettes vs. a few isolated deaths with MDMA. Socially, there is no comparison or doubt which of the three is the worst: alcohol by far. Can you even find an instance of domestic abuse or murder facilitated by MDMA? I could find a whole bunch that happened just…

I can have a beer every night for the rest of my life and experience little to no permanent effects. Long term MDMA use on the other hand has been shown to cause "marked neurodegeneration in striatal, hippocampal, prefrontal, and occipital serotonergic axon terminals. Neurotoxic damage to serotonergic axon terminals has been shown to persist for more than two years."

> I can have a beer every night for the rest of my life and experience little to no permanent effects.

And a certain percentage of people that tried that would get addicted and die from either acute or chronic effects.

Addiction potential and usage patterns are part of the harm profile of a drug. Alcohol is measurably worse.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#54

Post by Nursie »

senorjazz wrote: post #22
tpm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, long-term effects of alcohol are much worse, mostly because it damages the body as well as the brain, is used in larger amounts and through longer periods. Meanwhile people who have used MDMA at parties when young (and then stop using it, as most will) will have mostly no noticeable adverse long-term effects. Now of course if you consumed alcohol at anywhere near the frequency you consume water that wouldn't be…

so you comparing long term heavy alcohol use, vs minimal MDMA use during youth. Not really comparable. Would be comparing someone who has used MDMA 1-2 a week for 20 years against someone who had a couple of beers a week in college then stopped. Heavy prolonged use / abuse of MDMA is damaging. Same with any drug

> so you comparing long term heavy alcohol use, vs minimal MDMA use during youth.

Which are real-world, observable patterns. I'm not sure why we should ignore that?

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#55

Post by Broken_Hippo »

mdahlstrand wrote: post #9
ClassyJacket wrote: post #3

I have no doubts, and I'm so thankful of the research that MAPS is doing. I haven't even been thru any trauma and MDMA pulled me out of depression and greatly reduced my anxiety. It was an absolute miracle for me. It disgusts me that the stuff is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol are not. AMA.

Am very interested in hearing more about the methods you used. Did you just take MDMA recreationally and your depression got better, or did you do it together with (or at the same time as?) therapy? How many times/over how long time? Thank you

Not the poster, but I did it recreationally and got the benefits the poster is talking about. I've done it since then, each time benefiting, but nothing has really been as noticable as the first two times, the second probably being a couple of months after the first. I was quite shocked at the difference myself - this was a bit before I started seeing research results on MDMA.

And I'd like to clarify: Basically cured. I mean, I'm still a cynical person many times, but I don't have the constant worry (save for once a month, monthly hormones suck). I'm much more positive about life for the most part.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#56

Post by Broken_Hippo »

guildenstern wrote: post #29
clay_the_ripper wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any drug can be extremely dangerous. I see this response often (and I’m not critzizing you here) but look: painkillers, right? Given all the time. Can be EXTREMELY dangerous. Alcohol: CAN BE extremely dangerous. Millions of people die a year in alcohol related death. Nicotine: dangerous. Blood pressure medication: can be dangerous. Birth control pills...also dangerous. Drugs are freaking dangerous. Anythi…

Yes but MDMA specifically will mangle your brain after very little recreational usage relative to almost all other drugs. Recreational use of MDMA a few times a week is _very bad_ on the long term health of your brain, very few other drugs are on that level — certainly none of the drugs you’ve listed.

like the other poster said, a few times a week is not recreational at that point. Recreational use tends to be at most every other month, but for many more folks is going to be much less than that - 1 to 3 times a year.

I've known a person or two that simply didn't know how to space out their use, and did wind up with depression as a result. But this is the sort of thing that you can teach so long as you are honest about the rest of your drug education. It is something you can teach when you sell it to people. You can limit what folks can buy and keep a record of when people buy it - we already do this with some decongestants, after all. It isn't that there is not risks, but your comment is misguided on what constitutes more common recreational use of this particular drug and the things we can do to avoid this situation.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#57

Post by mnm1 »

fhood wrote: post #32
mnm1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they're not comparable because MDMA is much, much safer than either alcohol or cigarettes. We're talking millions of deaths a year for alcohol and cigarettes vs. a few isolated deaths with MDMA. Socially, there is no comparison or doubt which of the three is the worst: alcohol by far. Can you even find an instance of domestic abuse or murder facilitated by MDMA? I could find a whole bunch that happened just…

I can have a beer every night for the rest of my life and experience little to no permanent effects. Long term MDMA use on the other hand has been shown to cause "marked neurodegeneration in striatal, hippocampal, prefrontal, and occipital serotonergic axon terminals. Neurotoxic damage to serotonergic axon terminals has been shown to persist for more than two years."

There's simply no way to substantiate your claim. Plenty of people who drink daily get sick and die from the effects of alcohol, including drinking one beer a day. Also, if you're comparing one beer, you need to compare it to the equivalent MDMA dose which would not cause any psychoactive effects just like one beer typically doesn't.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#58

Post by kw71 »

ClassyJacket wrote: post #3

I have no doubts, and I'm so thankful of the research that MAPS is doing. I haven't even been thru any trauma and MDMA pulled me out of depression and greatly reduced my anxiety. It was an absolute miracle for me. It disgusts me that the stuff is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol are not. AMA.

It certainly seems like that when you are stuck in a deep, dark hole, an altered consciousness might be the best chance to find some motivation. Like realizing that there is good in the world and you can be a part of it.

MDMA brings some health risks that shouldn't be viewed lightly, though. Be careful.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#59

Post by sushid »

wp381640 wrote: post #17
dgzl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering what you consider a mid-range dose.

1mg / kg (or just a little more) I only later learned more about dosages and found that the downsides are at higher (1.5mg/kg+) doses and with long re-dosing

Really? If anything I would say that the rule of thumb (anecdotal) is 1 mg / lb.

Smaller girls I knew would be fine with 100mg doses and big dudes would need about 200mg or so. Most people would do 125mg - 150mg.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#60

Post by forgotmypwagain »

village-idiot wrote: post #31
forgotmypwagain wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fermentation of grains and fruit is a millennia-old way of preserving food that would otherwise spoil, so it isn’t without merit. The problem today is that alcohol is available so easily and so cheaply in many countries. In Germany, (some) beer costs less than regular milk per liter and hard liquor is available very cheaply as well. I have seen people that destroyed themselves using alcohol, but most people can deal…

Fermentation and alcohol for consumption are quite different, as you’re probably aware. My kombucha is technically fermented, but good luck getting drunk on it. There is also a sizable difference between more traditional forms of alcohol and cheap high proof spirits harm wise. Plus since this is a counterfactual, we don't actually need alcohol for preservation anymore. We have refrigeration. The bit about Germany and…

Sure not all fermentation produces alcohol, but many fermenting organisms do.

And of course it’s observational bias, I said that I personally can’t imagine how the culture of these countries would be without alcohol, though I’m sure people would get along just fine (we don’t need alcohol to survive after all). Just saying that not everything needs to be banned, otherwise we might as well ban sugar and salt as they probably kill just as many (or more) people as alcohol.

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