The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do • Hacker News Board

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#61

Post by rosser » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

frockington wrote: post #52

solipsism wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy (or at least easier) to be open and honest about our faults and failures when no one is telling us we'll burn in eternal damnation for them.

That's not really a thing in Christianity, Jesus had that whole "let he without sin cast the first stone" thing or whatever it was

It may not have a thing for Jesus, or the Bible, but it's very much a thing for Christianity.

Yet another illustration of the fundamental divergence of that institution from its origins.

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#62

Post by bernardino » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #44

bernardino wrote: post #23

What helped me get down to deep work was doing away with the nonessentials, i.e. a lot of physical material things, all forms of entertainment, the internet especially, inner clutter like comparing myself to others, etc. Seneca once noted in his Moral letters to Lucilius , “Until we have begun to go without them, we fail to realize how unnecessary many things are. We’ve been using them not because we needed them but…

I feel that when I eliminate forms of entertainment from my life or impose limits I can often go too far and then swing back in the other direction. Your comment seems to indicate you manage your vices similarly. Do you also recede back into them or has this not been a problem for you?

No, I definitely resort back to entertainment every once in a while. I wouldn't go as far to call it a problem though. I suppose entertainment in low doses is fine but entertainment as the main staple of our diet is no good. In terms of deep work, I think it's important to see the side of spectrum of how entertainment only exists to stimulate a neurological response. For instance, think about always refreshing a site we are particularly fond of when we know implicitly that we should not be doing that and we should be doing something else. But hey, it's increasingly hard do so, especially now when technology is growing exponentially. There's no doubt it's difficult, we know that. It takes real mental fortitude. But this is where doing away with the nonessentials comes into play - when you do so, what's left is us, face to face with what we have to do. If anything above makes sense.

All this talk about entertainment reminds me of David Foster Wallace on Entertainment Culture: https://tonyreinke.com/2018/03/05/david-foster-wallace-on-en...

A few good bits:

> "It just, I guess my point is, right now and I think the next 15 or 20 years are going to be a very scary and sort of very exciting time when we have to sort of reevaluate our relationship to fun and pleasure and entertainment because it’s going to get so good, and so high pressure, that we’re going to have to forge some kind of attitude toward it that lets us live."

> "what it’s going to be like and what sort of resources we’re going to have to cultivate in ourselves and in our citizenry to keep from sort of dying on couches. I mean, maybe that sounds silly, but the stuff’s going to get better and better and better and better and it’s not clear to me that we, as a culture, are teaching ourselves or our children what we’re going to say “yes” and “no” to."

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#63

Post by gonehome » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:49 PM UTC

I think the design your future actions is a big part of this.

I've had some success with framing two modes, Architect Mode and Implementation Mode.

Architect Mode is when you sit down and make a plan to achieve a long term challenging goal (losing a lot of weight, getting in shape, learning something new, etc.). It's where you set up a routine and plan for what you're specifically going to do each day in order to do this. Being able to separate this plan from when you're actually enacting it is important because it removes the choice and doesn't allow comparisons of an immediate reward with an abstract distant reward.

Implementation Mode has to follow what was set up by the architect and is not allowed to make decisions - this is because you're compromised and unreliable when comparing an immediate reward (do I eat that slice of cheesecake?) to a long term abstract reward and it's very easy to rationalize why what you want to do is actually okay (it's only an extra 400 calories anyway - today can be a cheat day etc.).

A big part of succeeding with implementation is stacking success (doing the thing every day without missing any day) and picking a small enough starting point. Another is not putting yourself in positions where you're easily tempted to fail (don't buy oreos and have them in the house). Once you get more in the rhythm of things you are safer in more difficult environments.

When Implementation mode fails it means the architect needs to reevaluate why and make changes - it doesn't help to ruminate or beat yourself up about the failure.

Even with this mindset things are difficult, but I've found it to be the most successful for long term goals when they're clearly defined - most of it is getting the psychology right - then the behavior can follow.

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#64

Post by bernardino » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

cbau wrote: post #45

bernardino wrote: post #23

What helped me get down to deep work was doing away with the nonessentials, i.e. a lot of physical material things, all forms of entertainment, the internet especially, inner clutter like comparing myself to others, etc. Seneca once noted in his Moral letters to Lucilius , “Until we have begun to go without them, we fail to realize how unnecessary many things are. We’ve been using them not because we needed them but…

Did you actually stop paying for internet? It's something I've been thinking about. Were any parts surprising difficult?

No, I have not. But that's definitely something to think about. It would certainly be nice. You ever hear about how it's better to study at a library rather than at home? That's certainly a good case with work but may also be a good case with using the internet - you know, do everything we have to do internet-related elsewhere (like at a dedicated WeWork desk). Then our home is more like an actual home, I think. If that's what you were trying to get at. Otherwise, I would definitely love to hear why you have been thinking about doing so.

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#65

Post by m3mpp » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

AWildC182 wrote: post #56

m3mpp wrote: post #48

We procrastinate because most of the jobs we do are completely mindless, repetitive and boring, and we have to spend so much time doing them. Good luck finding a method to fight that... Unless you're rich and the owner of your own time, in this case you don't need any "motivational" tool. Edit: lobotomy is another solution of course, using pills or any kind of drugs that massively reduce the amount of neurons in the…

And meaningless. Who cares about a stupid UI that 3 users are going to ever see and will be deleted at the next rewrite? To be productive, work has to be rewarding and for it to be rewarding, it has to have meaning.

Oh yes, and it's a shame because software development used to be meaningful, until accountants took over the world...

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#66

Post by byproxy » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

bernardino wrote: post #62

ckosidows wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that when I eliminate forms of entertainment from my life or impose limits I can often go too far and then swing back in the other direction. Your comment seems to indicate you manage your vices similarly. Do you also recede back into them or has this not been a problem for you?

No, I definitely resort back to entertainment every once in a while. I wouldn't go as far to call it a problem though. I suppose entertainment in low doses is fine but entertainment as the main staple of our diet is no good. In terms of deep work, I think it's important to see the side of spectrum of how entertainment only exists to stimulate a neurological response. For instance, think about always refreshing a site…

How would you define 'entertainment'? Is it simply something that distracts from 'work' being done? Or, time spent on something from which no 'value' can be obtained?

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#67

Post by padobson » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #63

I think the design your future actions is a big part of this. I've had some success with framing two modes, Architect Mode and Implementation Mode. Architect Mode is when you sit down and make a plan to achieve a long term challenging goal (losing a lot of weight, getting in shape, learning something new, etc.). It's where you set up a routine and plan for what you're specifically going to do each day in order to do…

Love this. Especially this part:

When Implementation mode fails it means the architect needs to reevaluate why and make changes

Every plan I've ever put together to improve myself or my life has failed on initial implementation. It wasn't until I expected the first iteration of the plan to fail that I learned how to succeed.

Plan. Fail. Tweak. Retry. The goal usually doesn't need to change, but the plan often does.

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#68

Post by simcop2387 » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

frockington wrote: post #52

solipsism wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy (or at least easier) to be open and honest about our faults and failures when no one is telling us we'll burn in eternal damnation for them.

That's not really a thing in Christianity, Jesus had that whole "let he without sin cast the first stone" thing or whatever it was

It depends on which sect and tradition of Christianity, there's a lot in the south eastern USA that preach about fire and brimstone like that. They don't usually go on about specific people, but people in general so they're skirting the whole without sin thing. I remember in particular a number of Southern Baptist preachers that were like this. I can't say that it's their chosen doctrine since I was never a Southern Baptist nor have I studied anything around it, but they were always prevalent where I grew up (middle of nowhere North Carolina).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_brimstone

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#69

Post by mistermann » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #61

frockington wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a thing in Christianity, Jesus had that whole "let he without sin cast the first stone" thing or whatever it was

It may not have a thing for Jesus, or the Bible, but it's very much a thing for Christianity. Yet another illustration of the fundamental divergence of that institution from its origins.

> but it's very much a thing for Christianity

I wonder if you might explain what exactly you mean by this, and to what degree you believe it is a thing.

And to be very, very clear: I'm asking this absolutely sincerely. Not in a clever or trolling manner, but rather, I am asking in an epistemological sense.

Re: The Akrasia Effect: Why We Don’t Follow Through on What We Set Out to Do

#70

Post by gonehome » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

padobson wrote: post #67

gonehome wrote: post #63

I think the design your future actions is a big part of this. I've had some success with framing two modes, Architect Mode and Implementation Mode. Architect Mode is when you sit down and make a plan to achieve a long term challenging goal (losing a lot of weight, getting in shape, learning something new, etc.). It's where you set up a routine and plan for what you're specifically going to do each day in order to do…

Love this. Especially this part: When Implementation mode fails it means the architect needs to reevaluate why and make changes Every plan I've ever put together to improve myself or my life has failed on initial implementation. It wasn't until I expected the first iteration of the plan to fail that I learned how to succeed. Plan. Fail. Tweak. Retry. The goal usually doesn't need to change, but the plan often does.

Yeah - I agree, I think we're working with hardware that has biological rewards training us to do things we may not want to over a long time horizon. Separating architect/implementation allows you to plan free of the pull of the immediate reward. Accepting failure as part of the process and recognizing that it's not impossible to succeed seems like a big piece of getting the mindset right.

We can overcome these issues, but it's not an easy thing to do.