Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle' • Hacker News Board

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#41

Post by heavenlyblue » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

guildenstern wrote: post #29

clay_the_ripper wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any drug can be extremely dangerous. I see this response often (and I’m not critzizing you here) but look: painkillers, right? Given all the time. Can be EXTREMELY dangerous. Alcohol: CAN BE extremely dangerous. Millions of people die a year in alcohol related death. Nicotine: dangerous. Blood pressure medication: can be dangerous. Birth control pills...also dangerous. Drugs are freaking dangerous. Anythi…

Yes but MDMA specifically will mangle your brain after very little recreational usage relative to almost all other drugs. Recreational use of MDMA a few times a week is _very bad_ on the long term health of your brain, very few other drugs are on that level — certainly none of the drugs you’ve listed.

>> is _very bad_ on the long term health

Would you prove that please?

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#42

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

heavenlyblue wrote: post #41

guildenstern wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but MDMA specifically will mangle your brain after very little recreational usage relative to almost all other drugs. Recreational use of MDMA a few times a week is _very bad_ on the long term health of your brain, very few other drugs are on that level — certainly none of the drugs you’ve listed.

>> is _very bad_ on the long term health Would you prove that please?

[deleted]

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#43

Post by heavenlyblue » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

wp381640 wrote: post #17

dgzl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering what you consider a mid-range dose.

1mg / kg (or just a little more) I only later learned more about dosages and found that the downsides are at higher (1.5mg/kg+) doses and with long re-dosing

I would barely feel anything at that dose and it would be incredibly short-spanned; more like cocaine. It's literally 75% of the dose for ~20% of the effects.

Besides, if you would have read the article - they are mentioning dosages of 125mg.

I would also be confident enough to say that MDMA is not as linear in dosages against body weight and _almost_surely_ it depends way more on your digestive than your body mass.

PS: to be clear, I did this with people who were multiples of my own weight (68kg) and incredibly petite ladies who were smaller than me. Dosage has little correlation with the effects they would get.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#44

Post by MarkMc » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

fhood wrote: post #5

MDMA can be extremely dangerous to your long term mental health. I'm not saying it doesn't have valid medical benefits, it certainly seems to, but if you consumed MDMA at any where near the frequency it is safe to consume alcohol it would not go well. Don't get me wrong, I think it should be legal, but lets not pretend it is comparable to alcohol. Edit: TL;DR MDMA probably has incredible medical benefits, but this do…

This Lancet study [0] rated the 'harm to self' of ecstacy much lower than alcohol:

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/attachment/b3a9c7d1-bb08-42f3-...

Two points to note: (a) The study looked at the effect of the 'street' drug Ecstacy - ie. cut with other harmful drugs - not pure MDMA; (b) Perhaps the low 'harm to self' rating is an indirect product of the fact that it is illegal - if it was more widely available people would abuse it much more than alcohol and it would get a higher 'self harm' rating

[0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#45

Post by jtmcmc » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

leoreeves wrote: post #28

psychedictic wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More specifically, MDMA is neurotoxic.

Indeed, this is a good overview: https://thedea.org/mdma-risks-science-and-statistics-technic...

no it's not! it references a retracted paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminer... where he used methamphetamines instead of MDMA.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#46

Post by dang » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

jeffreybezos wrote: post #2

I incorrectly thought the article was about a veterinarian and euthenasia of animals/pets.

Using a famous person's name as your handle is not a good idea on HN, unless it's actually your name as well. I've banned this account, but if you send us a different username at hn@ycombinator.com we can rename it for you and unban it.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#47

Post by monktastic1 » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #23

fhood wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It disgusts me that the stuff is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol Alcohol and cigarettes are not really comparable to MDMA, and I just wanted to make that point. Marijuana? Sure, in much the same category, probably safer. MDMA is a whole different class of chemical.

Of course they're not comparable because MDMA is much, much safer than either alcohol or cigarettes. We're talking millions of deaths a year for alcohol and cigarettes vs. a few isolated deaths with MDMA. Socially, there is no comparison or doubt which of the three is the worst: alcohol by far. Can you even find an instance of domestic abuse or murder facilitated by MDMA? I could find a whole bunch that happened just…

Safety has more than one axis. Also, if we sold MDMA in pubs, and told everyone "hey, take as much as you like, as often as you like" are you sure things would go swimmingly?

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#48

Post by leoreeves » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

jtmcmc wrote: post #45

leoreeves wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this is a good overview: https://thedea.org/mdma-risks-science-and-statistics-technic...

no it's not! it references a retracted paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminer... where he used methamphetamines instead of MDMA.

The author was one of the key critics that got that paper withdrawn! From the overview:

> In the fall of 2002 George Ricaurte, the Dark Prince of suspect science, published an article in the prestigious journal Science that claimed that a “common recreational dose” of MDMA caused severe damage to the dopamine systems of monkeys.[26] (Parkinson’s disease involves the death of dopamine neurons, so extensive damage to your dopamine axons could presumably cause symptoms similar to Parkinson’s.) The press and politicians went mad. Draconian new anti-MDMA laws were passed, including the infamous RAVE Act, which made it illegal to throw a party if you “should have known” that some people would be using drugs at it. MAPS, which had been on the verge of finally having its MDMA post-traumatic stress disorder research approved, was stopped cold in the face of the apparent new evidence of MDMA’s horrific dangers.

> More than a year later, after scathing criticism from TheDEA.org, the house of cards collapsed when Ricaurte sheepishly admitted that the experiment never really happened: The monkeys had actually been given massive doses of methampetamine, not MDMA! He also admitted that no matter what they had tried, they had been unable to damage monkey’s dopamine systems with real MDMA.

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#49

Post by sannee » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

wp381640 wrote: post #25

dgzl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be rude, but not only is 1mg not a 'mid-range' dose, but it's not even enough to get effects from the drug. 100mg is ~average for a small/beginner dose (usually cost $5-10), could that be what your thinking? Source: My own and my friends' experiences. Edit: my apologies, I didn't see the /kg part of your equation. After doing the math, yes that seems like a reasonable beginner/small dose.

1mg per KG of bodyweight

Given the high individual variance, dosing psychedelic substances by bodyweight isn't usually considered very effective at estimating the final effect.

Always start with a low/threshold dose first and go from there (this might be less practical for MDMA, where you want to limit repeated exposure).

Re: Suicidal Vet Calls MDMA Treatment ‘a Miracle'

#50

Post by microcolonel » Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

ClassyJacket wrote: post #3

I have no doubts, and I'm so thankful of the research that MAPS is doing. I haven't even been thru any trauma and MDMA pulled me out of depression and greatly reduced my anxiety. It was an absolute miracle for me. It disgusts me that the stuff is illegal while cigarettes and alcohol are not. AMA.

Yeah, there really is no moral excuse for any restriction (or even tax) on the purchase of chemicals which are broadly safe for consumption, completely generic, and of considerable medicinal value. I am convinced that there are more people who would begin to benefit from unprescribed private self-medication with MDMA than who would begin to suffer suffer harm.