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Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#51

Post by latch »

07d046 wrote: post #41
onetimemanytime wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States,…

Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.

You're right, but it's worth remembering that the distinction appears to be eroding. I was going to mention the same case that my sibling, throwawayt1894, mentioned.

Drone strikes against US citizens in a country not a war with the US is at least worth thinking about. I can generally buy the ends-justify-the-means argument (or at least consider it), but the press secretary's response to this always rubbed me the wrong way: 'I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father...'

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#52

Post by 07d046 »

throwawayt1894 wrote: post #44
07d046 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.

Yeah, only their children: https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

This whataboutism is not helpful.

Unless you think the boy was deliberately targeted to be killed, surely you can understand that being killed in a drone strike targeting another is very different to being deliberately shot to death.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#53

Post by Rapzid »

King-Aaron wrote: post #3
nyolfen wrote: post #2

"This didn't make it into the piece, but here's how the Chinese treated people working with the CIA: According to one source, one asset working at a state tech institutes, and his pregnant wife, were executed live on closed circuit TV in front of the staff." https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712

Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinio…

If you study the grammar on a lot of these posts, all over the internet even, you may come to the conclusion that the posters are government plants or Chinese CCP zealots.

I wouldn't rule out a massive propoganda campaign; HN, mainstream news article comments, suspicious Quora "questions" about China with manipulative "answers", Confucius Institutes!..

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#55

Post by 07d046 »

latch wrote: post #51
07d046 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.

You're right, but it's worth remembering that the distinction appears to be eroding. I was going to mention the same case that my sibling, throwawayt1894, mentioned. Drone strikes against US citizens in a country not a war with the US is at least worth thinking about. I can generally buy the ends-justify-the-means argument (or at least consider it), but the press secretary's response to this always rubbed me the wron…

Yeah, the perpetual state of war and the drone strikes that coincide with that that America has gotten itself into is concerning. Still, I would strongly argue that there is a world of difference between the sins of America and China about targeting family members.

The third parties (i.e., children or wives) that are killed in drone strikes are surely collateral damage. America isn't targeting these people. (I'm certainly not arguing that it's right.)

China has shown on many occasions that it is willing to use the relatives of people it doesn't like as leverage. I don't know if it's because it has a long history of it [1] or just because it's effective and China isn't constrained by the rule of law. There have been many cases where the relatives of journalists working overseas have suffered [2], and Liu Xia was under house arrest for almost a decade because of her husbands "crimes" despite never being charged herself [3].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations

2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-detains-relatives...

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xia_(intellectual)

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#56

Post by paganel »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #22
King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinio…

Out of curiosity, how do you think traitors providing potentially critical intelligence to one of the most dangerous agencies of a powerful and aggressive unfriendly foreign power should be treated, when there is literally zero doubt as to their guilt? And to be clear, I'm not condoning this action but I'm also not so quick condemn it. I'm genuinely uncertain if I somehow were the Chinese government what my decision…

I think executing the pregnant wife of said traitors is a bit barbaric and in the long run barbaric regimes have tended to be less stable compared to countries/regimes which have treated traitors in a more civilized manner (due process, not executing their relatives etc).

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#58

Post by bsimpson »

jarym wrote: post #34

Maybe they should have used BBM/iMessage/WhatsApp - all the civilian gear governments are screaming they need backdoors into because they’re too tough to crack... Yes I say this partly in jest and also partly as a ‘why didn’t they’. BBM Enterprise over a VPN service popular with movie streamers would have actually helped them blend in... digitally speaking.

Just because the Albuquerque Police Department can't crack doesn't mean the NSA can't.

Interesting point about blending in, but I suspect they thought they could build a system more secure than the commercial options and/or didn't trust their security in the hands of a third party.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#59

Post by latch »

07d046 wrote: post #52
throwawayt1894 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, only their children: https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

This whataboutism is not helpful. Unless you think the boy was deliberately targeted to be killed, surely you can understand that being killed in a drone strike targeting another is very different to being deliberately shot to death.

It's a discussion directly comparing how two countries act towards the same crime. Don't participate in the thread if you don't find whataboutism helpful?

I don't have the strong moral reservations many have against drone strikes. Tactically advantageous, cheaper, no pilot at risk. Pretty compelling. But in their own way, they're terrifying specifically for the reason you mention: they are less discriminating.

You can think delibery shooting is much worse. And I can see how someone would feel that way. But I think a reasonable person ought to be able to understand how another reasonable person might see things differently.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/ev...

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#60

Post by _iyig »

The CIA has a long and storied history of arrogance, incompetence, and letting down sources. The book, “Legacy of Ashes” provides an excellent readable, detailed history of the Agency since its creation, with tons of primary-source interviews and research.

(The title refers to a quote by Eisenhower, who left the Presidency disappointed at the “legacy of ashes” which was all he felt the CIA accomplished during his tenure.)

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