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Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#41

Post by 07d046 »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #21
07d046 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an earlier NYT piece: > According to three of the officials, one was shot in front of his colleagues in the courtyard of a government building — a message to others who might have been working for the C.I.A. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...

USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States,…

Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war).

Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution.

Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#42

Post by gammateam »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #32
onetimemanytime wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States,…

Death penalty is a bit different from summary execution.

just in time and expense

Chinese intelligence executed 30 operatives? Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year and save us money.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#43

Post by IIAOPSW »

gammateam wrote: post #42
IIAOPSW wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death penalty is a bit different from summary execution.

just in time and expense Chinese intelligence executed 30 operatives? Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year and save us money.

>Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year

I'm not in favor of that either.

And its still apples to oranges. A police shooting in the moment is much different from a planned and televised execution.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#44

Post by throwawayt1894 »

07d046 wrote: post #41
onetimemanytime wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has the death penalty for treason too. Now you can argue back and forth (US wants China to eventually be democratic so I'm helping China by spying for CIA...etc) but they essentially betrayed their country. Chinese efficiency: Torture them till they tell want they know and then teach others a lesson along the way too. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States,…

Technically, this wouldn't be treason according to the US definition, because treason is only possible in the context of a declared enemy of the USA (i.e., war). Also, there is a judicial process in the USA, not a summary execution. Also, the pregnant wives of traitors aren't executed in the USA.

Yeah, only their children:

https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#45

Post by bsder »

yborg wrote: post #13

It took 8 years for the CIA to figure out what happened?? This certainly explains why China and Russia continue to conduct cyber operations basically at the same level of intensity they have been for years - US intelligence, despite its enormous, unaccountable budget is unable to stop them or even know where they are compromised. If there is an actual hot conflict between the US and either of these nations, I shudder…

Defense is always harder than offense when it comes to computers.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#46

Post by 07d046 »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #16
King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinio…

I agree that I see a lot of Chinese apologism in the form of "this is the Chinese way" here. I wouldn't say that the comments are necessarily pro-China though, but rather just explaining that it is a different culture and things are done in a different way. I do think it's a bullshit cop out though. I think that it's ignorant at best and racist at worst when people make comments here along the lines of "Chinese peopl…

It's a popular argument that "Asian values" legitimise China's approach. But it appears to be wrong:

> Findings from our multinational survey suggest no obvious relationship between Asian values and support for freedom of expression at the country level. At the individual level, the data suggest a positive relationship between Asian values and support for freedom of expression when Asian values are treated as a single concept.

http://as.ucpress.edu/content/58/3/535

Moreover, the existence of Taiwan, a progressive, wealthy liberal democracy full of Chinese people, would disprove that claim too.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#47

Post by Rapzid »

gammateam wrote: post #42
IIAOPSW wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death penalty is a bit different from summary execution.

just in time and expense Chinese intelligence executed 30 operatives? Good thing we have a decentralized unaccountable police force larger than ALL national armies to carry out summary executions to the tune of 1,000 citizens per year and save us money.

I think you may have a hard time convincing people that the difference between due process and summary executions is just in time and expenses.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#48

Post by throwawayt1894 »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #22
King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinio…

Out of curiosity, how do you think traitors providing potentially critical intelligence to one of the most dangerous agencies of a powerful and aggressive unfriendly foreign power should be treated, when there is literally zero doubt as to their guilt? And to be clear, I'm not condoning this action but I'm also not so quick condemn it. I'm genuinely uncertain if I somehow were the Chinese government what my decision…

I'm just surprised they didn't try to make them double agents or at least feed them false information. It seems like a rash judgement to suddenly eliminate 30+ people who you know are spies.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#49

Post by King-Aaron »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #22
King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously a revelation on Twitter about a secretive organisation's workings should always be taken with a grain of salt. However these sorts of reports aren't too uncommon, and it surprises me how there's a lot of pro-china commentators in communities such as HN who seem to glaze over these sorts of things and still aggressively promote the "Chinese way of doing things" is superior to whatever western value or opinio…

Out of curiosity, how do you think traitors providing potentially critical intelligence to one of the most dangerous agencies of a powerful and aggressive unfriendly foreign power should be treated, when there is literally zero doubt as to their guilt? And to be clear, I'm not condoning this action but I'm also not so quick condemn it. I'm genuinely uncertain if I somehow were the Chinese government what my decision…

> but I think you are quite certain

Quite the contrary, not sure how this conclusion was drawn.

I just feel that "execution of them and their family broadcast to the entire staff" isn't really a value that is typically held in high esteem.

Re: Botched CIA Communications System Helped Blow Cover of Chinese Agents

#50

Post by throwawayt1894 »

68c12c16 wrote: post #18
nyolfen wrote: post #2

"This didn't make it into the piece, but here's how the Chinese treated people working with the CIA: According to one source, one asset working at a state tech institutes, and his pregnant wife, were executed live on closed circuit TV in front of the staff." https://twitter.com/zachsdorfman/status/1029861843521523712

I think the reason why Chinese government would execute defected officials, instead of putting them in prison for life, is because historically defected officials often caused very serious losses to the chinese communist party. For instance, one of the most damaging defectors in their history was Gu Shunzhang, who led to the arrest of hundreds of their underground communists (many of those arrested were executed by t…

I don't think it has anything to do with valuing human life or not.

I'm sure we both agree the US values human life, but the government is more than willing to accept the death of a 16 year old American citizen when trying to target his father during a drone strike.

I'm more surprised that they would reveal their hand so suddenly. Maybe I watch too many movies, but I would think if you have exposed the entire network, then doing counter-espionage would be the smarter tactic.

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