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Do electrons think? (1949)

quantumlifescience.wordpress.com

51–60 of 64 posts

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#51
post #43
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just many-worlds style wave-function realism with some extra epicycles on top. Treating the wavefunction as physically real is perfectly reasonable. Treating the wavefunction as physically real and then assuming there are also pseudoclassical particles on top adds nothing except appealing to the confused - "oh no, the particles aren't in a superposition, the particles are just ordinary classical particles... all…

I don't think the wavefunction is a physical object. It's just a mathematical abstraction to describe reality, theres no real justification to treat it as something physical?

I think in Pilot Wave Theory it is considered a physical wave of some sort.

> According to pilot wave theory, the point particle and the matter wave are both real and distinct physical entities (unlike standard quantum mechanics, where particles and waves are considered to be the same entities, connected by wave–particle duality). The pilot wave guides the motion of the point particles as described by the guidance equation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave_theory

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#52

Note that, contrary to popular understanding, it isn't even established that quantum mechanics is indeterminate or not subject to strict cause-and-effect. It's indeterminate according to the mainstream Copenhagen interpretation, but de Broglie–Bohm theory [1] ("pilot wave theory") is an interpretation that is entirely deterministic, and its assumptions result in exactly the same final equations as the Copenhagen one.…

In this instance, the popular understanding corresponds to the latest research better than realist theories like pilot-wave theory. Proponents of realist interpretations of QM have relied for decades on identifying possible classical channels of relativistic communication, or theorizing the existence of hidden variables. The double slit experiment has been used in various forms to, over time, eliminate these channels…

Sadly this seems to be an issue that is shrouded in a lot turf war within the physics community. As someone who is mostly interested in the history of it from my armchair, I think it's important to put out there:

The assertion that Bell's inequality shut down Bohemian Mechanics is absolutely false. This claim has been floating around since the the 60s. The biggest disagreement came from ... J.S. Bell himself. He was a proponent of Bohemian Mechanics and didn't agree that he had dismantled it.

==== The criticism ====

> Recently, however, physicists more commonly cite the Kochen-Specker Theorem and, more frequently, Bell’s inequality in support of the contention that a deterministic completion of quantum theory is impossible. We still find, a quarter of a century after the rediscovery of Bohmian mechanics in 1952, statements such as these:

> The proof he [von Neumann] published …, though it was made much more convincing later on by Kochen and Specker (1967), still uses assumptions which, in my opinion, can quite reasonably be questioned. … In my opinion, the most convincing argument against the theory of hidden variables was presented by J.S. Bell (1964). (Wigner [1976] 1983: 291)

==== Bell's Take ====

> There was, however, one physicist who wrote on this subject with even greater clarity and insight than Wigner himself: the very J. S. Bell whom Wigner praises for demonstrating the impossibility of a deterministic completion of quantum theory such as Bohmian mechanics. Here’s how Bell himself reacted to Bohm’s discovery:

> But in 1952 I saw the impossible done. It was in papers by David Bohm. Bohm showed explicitly how parameters could indeed be introduced, into nonrelativistic wave mechanics, with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. More importantly, in my opinion, the subjectivity of the orthodox version, the necessary reference to the “observer”, could be eliminated. …

> But why then had Born not told me of this “pilot wave”? If only to point out what was wrong with it? Why did von Neumann not consider it? More extraordinarily, why did people go on producing “impossibility” proofs, after 1952, and as recently as 1978? … Why is the pilot wave picture ignored in text books? Should it not be taught, not as the only way, but as an antidote to the prevailing complacency? To show us that vagueness, subjectivity, and indeterminism, are not forced on us by experimental facts, but by deliberate theoretical choice? (Bell 1982, reprinted in 1987c: 160)

> Wigner to the contrary notwithstanding, Bell did not establish the impossibility of a deterministic reformulation of quantum theory, nor did he ever claim to have done so. On the contrary, until his untimely death in 1990, Bell was the prime proponent, and for much of this period almost the sole proponent, of the very theory, Bohmian mechanics, that he supposedly demolished.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-bohm/

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#53
post #43
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just many-worlds style wave-function realism with some extra epicycles on top. Treating the wavefunction as physically real is perfectly reasonable. Treating the wavefunction as physically real and then assuming there are also pseudoclassical particles on top adds nothing except appealing to the confused - "oh no, the particles aren't in a superposition, the particles are just ordinary classical particles... all…

I don't think the wavefunction is a physical object. It's just a mathematical abstraction to describe reality, theres no real justification to treat it as something physical?

> I don't think the wavefunction is a physical object. It's just a mathematical abstraction to describe reality, theres no real justification to treat it as something physical?

What do you consider justification to treat something as physical? Do you consider e.g. electrons "just a mathematical abstraction to describe reality", or do you consider them "something physical"? If so, why?

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#54
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's your justification for that? Occam's razor. The wavefunction is the simplest construct that explains our experimental results (it appears in every interpretation to some degree or another, certainly in pilot wave theory where it is the pilot wave ), so it's simplest to assume it just is what's really happening. > I remember Arthur Eddington pointing out that it could be interpreted as modeling our limited kn…

> The wavefunction is the simplest construct that explains our experimental results (it appears in every interpretation), so it's simplest to assume it just is what's really happening. You are addressing a straw man. I never said anything about an alternative to wavefunctions—I brought up how they should be interpreted. Additionally, your claim, "so it's simplest to assume it just is what's really happening" has no m…

> I never said anything about an alternative to wavefunctions

Unless you're denying that physical reality exists at all, to suggest that the wavefunction isn't physical reality is implicitly to suggest that something else is.

> He wasn't talking about a hidden variable theory, just about how to interpret the wavefunction, holding all theoretical elements constant: does it model our knowledge of physical states, or the physical states themselves.

If you're assuming there are "physical states themselves" that the wavefunction is merely our knowledge of, that's practically the definition of a hidden variable theory.

> The first one is simpler because we already know we are observing the physical states through an intermediary and that our knowledge is limited; the second one introduces a new capability to the universe.

Nonsense. Observation is an ordinary physical process that happens inside the universe; anything that "observing" can do must already be something the universe is capable of.

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#55
post #48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you square the probability amplitude and take the absolute value, that you get something that works very much like a probability. But there is nothing in many-worlds theory that says this quantity has any special significance.

I still either don't see why you say that, or don't follow what you are trying to say. The Born rule is a fundamental feature of all quantum theories, and I don't see why Everett is an exception. If you want an intuitive picture of what the squared amplitude means, it seems that it would suffice to think of it as the fraction of phase space which evolves into the configuration associated with that amplitude.

In fact you can't get to the Born rule from WMI without doing some (IMO) strange things.

See e.g. https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.7907

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#56

I wonder if anyone here would be so kind as to explain Schrodinger's argument. I'm not grasping it. Is he making a fundamental point about the degrees of freedom an electron can have, delimiting ideas about how a brain can process thought with the help of self-willed electrons? Or is it confined to whether an electron itself can have thought. What point is he making in the debate about whether humans are automata? I'…

He's saying that just because the movements of particles are not predictable doesn't mean you all of a sudden get to claim "free will"-- the ability to somehow impose an arbitrary desire in the chain of causality between your sense experiences and your actions. In order for you to have "free will" in this classical sense, you'd have to control the "slit" the electrons "swerve" through. But you don't. They just act randomly. They're not the things that impose your will. Your will is still an illusion.

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bell's theorem rules out locality even for non-deterministic theories as well. Don't get determinism and realism confused...

I might not be using the same definitions as you are or maybe I'm getting something mixed up, so I'd be glad if you could elaborate on what exactly you mean by "determinism", "realism" and especially "locality". (In my book, the Copenhagen interpretation is a non-realistic(∆), non-deterministic and local theory, which would contradict your statement.) (∆) Assuming, of course, that the wave function is not an object o…

Many would argue that Copenhagen is not local, but its very hard to even define locality if you are genuinely non-realist about everything.

Regardless, if it was possible to be "local + non-deterministic" many of us would be fine with that. But its not - Bell rules out "locality + realism", regardless of whether the realistic theory is deterministic or non-deterministic.

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#58
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Everettian interpretation, experiments do not have results (!) and it is not clear what probability even means, much less how the Born rule and observed statistics arise. That's because it is not a theory about our world, but about an imagined world where the only things existing is the psi function. > every possible outcome of a quantum measurement actually happens in due proportion to the probabilities descr…

I am not sure what you mean by "experiments do not have results." A measurement in Everett is the environment becoming entangled with the measured system, and a "result" is a particular basis of the combined wavefunction.

> what you mean by "experiments do not have results."

Let the experiment measure spin projection s_y of an atom previously prepared in spin state |s_x+>. It is known empirically that this experiment has two possible mutually exclusive results, +1/2 and -1/2, with probability of each being 1/2. Standard quantum theory accepts this and uses mathematics to predict those probabilities from data on the mutual arrangement of preparator and analyser of the spin.

Such predictions are difficult to be made in Everettian theory, because that theory describes both the particle with spin and those forming the measuring apparatus in the same way. When that is done, the physical process of measurement can be mathematically described by the Schroedinger equation, which may seem like a win, but it has a big downside: all it gives is a ray in the big Hilbert space of particle plus apparatus at later times; it is not clear what this calculation result is good for. It is not the prediction of real experiment's result; it is not even clear how to use it to calculate probabilities of those results. Certainly not by Born's rule - because what is the eigenfunction to be used in the Born formula? Such eigenfunction is, in standard theory, determined by the classical settings of the apparatus, such as orientation of the SG magnet. But there is no such thing in Everettian theory, there is just psi function.

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#59
post #58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you mean by "experiments do not have results." A measurement in Everett is the environment becoming entangled with the measured system, and a "result" is a particular basis of the combined wavefunction.

> what you mean by "experiments do not have results." Let the experiment measure spin projection s_y of an atom previously prepared in spin state |s_x+>. It is known empirically that this experiment has two possible mutually exclusive results, +1/2 and -1/2, with probability of each being 1/2. Standard quantum theory accepts this and uses mathematics to predict those probabilities from data on the mutual arrangement…

If I have two bases |O_up> and |O_down>, representing the observer in the state of having measured an up spin and a down spin respectively, what is wrong with taking and to find the fraction of Hilbert space occupied by either possibility?

Re: Do electrons think? (1949)

#60
post #59
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what you mean by "experiments do not have results." Let the experiment measure spin projection s_y of an atom previously prepared in spin state |s_x+>. It is known empirically that this experiment has two possible mutually exclusive results, +1/2 and -1/2, with probability of each being 1/2. Standard quantum theory accepts this and uses mathematics to predict those probabilities from data on the mutual arrangement…

If I have two bases |O_up> and |O_down>, representing the observer in the state of having measured an up spin and a down spin respectively, what is wrong with taking and to find the fraction of Hilbert space occupied by either possibility?

It does not work as written. How is |O_up> defined in terms of the basis of the global Hilbert space? There is infinity of directions in space which we can choose as the defining axis of the ket |O_up>. You could calculate the inner product for any of them. Does that mean that the inner product is typically zero and to get a non-zero probability, one has to talk not about probability of possible results of measurement, but about probability on the space of possible measurement setups? If so, why bother with the concept of quantum measurement at all? Why not just say any configuration of the world from some measurable set has probability int |psi|^2 dq? That would be the other, non-projection Born rule (or interpretation of psi), which doesn't have the problem of preferred basis and does not need it to be chosen by the classical apparatus.
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