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Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

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Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#41

Post by _ptgt »

ardy42 wrote: post #27
yeukhon wrote: post #8

EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-... . You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respe…

> I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respect U.S. laws. That assumes a certain moral equivalency between local laws that just isn't the case. Would you say the same thing about the Nuremberg Laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_…

Moreover, there IS a huge conflict of interest on Google's part as far as its users' privacy goes.

Suppose China becomes a significant part of Google's business in a number of years. Does anyone familiar with China doubt that its government would be willing to exercise that leverage over Google to extract private user information ... even about it's non-Chinese userbase?

How would future Google respond? Would there not be a gigantic financial incentive for Google to hand it over? Would it be willing to leave the Chinese market to withhold its user's personal data?

None of this is certain, but the risk is real enough imo that it makes me uncomfortable as a US-based Google user.

Sure, you can argue "well the US has done this in the past" but A) it's much more possible for Google to say "no" in the US, and B) the US government's interest in such data has historically been limited to (admittedly arguably overzealous) national security concerns, whereas the CCP's interest in such data seems to be for "whatever we can get out of it."

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#42

Post by [deleted] »

robjan wrote: post #39
est wrote: post #2

Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge m…

Maps does not work in China. Source: in China

[deleted]

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#43

Post by sheepmullet »

scarface74 wrote: post #24
aviv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my point. I don't like or listen to the guy, but your reaction shows precisely why they chose him. Who is next? If they can take down someone as vocal as Alex Jones, they can take down anyone.

Conservatives are always embracing the free market. If there were a market for his ideas, he should have no trouble finding funding, advertising, etc. If his ideas really are that popular, he should be able to create the conservative versions of Twitter, Facebook, etc. All of the FAANG companies started out competing against entrenched incumbents by offering a service they didn't. Why can't he do the same?

> If there were a market for his ideas, he should have no trouble finding funding, advertising, etc.

Alex Jones will be fine. It’s the up and comers who are clearly being locked out of the market.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#44

Post by rustacean »

robjan wrote: post #39
est wrote: post #2

Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge m…

Maps does not work in China. Source: in China

google web map always works in mainland

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#45

Post by omnimus »

sheepmullet wrote: post #35
yeukhon wrote: post #8

EFF complains about this ONLY because EFF partnered with Google https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/work-eff-summer-apply-... . You don't hear Mozilla or Apple complaining about Google returning to China though. I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respe…

> This means Googlers should all quit - but trust me, most people won't, even though they cheer others to stand up The American way is just to start doing a half ass job! That way you keep getting paid lots but aren’t contributing to evil.

Wow i never thought about this solution. Thats quite nice subtle subversion. Americans might not be doomed after all.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#46

Post by 07d046 »

_ptgt wrote: post #41
ardy42 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not really sure why Google matters in China and how this matters to anyone. You enter someone's country and you ought to obey the local laws there. Just as Chinese companies entering U.S. need to respect U.S. laws. That assumes a certain moral equivalency between local laws that just isn't the case. Would you say the same thing about the Nuremberg Laws? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_legislation_in_…

Moreover, there IS a huge conflict of interest on Google's part as far as its users' privacy goes. Suppose China becomes a significant part of Google's business in a number of years. Does anyone familiar with China doubt that its government would be willing to exercise that leverage over Google to extract private user information ... even about it's non-Chinese userbase? How would future Google respond? Would there n…

Absolutely. And this isn't a hypothetical.

> Yet even for those who have escaped China, surveillance and intimidation have followed. As part of a massive campaign to monitor and intimidate its ethnic minorities no matter where they are, Chinese authorities are creating a global registry of Uighurs who live outside of China, threatening to detain their relatives if they do not provide personal and identifying information to Chinese police. This campaign is now reaching even Uighurs who live in the United States.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-police-are-spying-on-u...

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#47

Post by echevil »

Eridrus wrote: post #33
bobjordan wrote: post #28

I'm an American, own and operate two Chinese companies (an operations/engineering consulting company and a factory). I was here when Google left. From the end user's viewpoint, internet censorship has only become more strict. While VPN access has never been totally unavailable, it can be painful to use. I've changed my browsing habits to settle for using Bing more than I otherwise would have. At the same time, I'm th…

Is there anywhere I can read about Bing in China? My attempts to Google this before seeing your coent led to contradictory claims, like Bing being blocked.

Bing has always been operating normally in China

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#48

Post by aviv »

threatofrain wrote: post #21
aviv wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And look at the uproar that the bakery caused with the constant mainstream news coverage back then. But now? Silence, and if not silence, total justification and questioning why Big Tech didn't do it sooner.

Exactly? Scarface is saying that the refusal to promote a message is also part of free speech, and an easier case than the refusal to serve gay customers. At best your response is to ask those who have sympathy towards gay people, "Why don't you get angry at laws which suggest that businesses have to serve gay people, even if their religious beliefs tell them that homosexuality is a sin?" I also wouldn't be surprised…

He represents free speech. He is just one of several conservative leaning voices silenced by Big Tech in recent months.

One of the most troubling aspects of the Alex Jones ban is the obvious coordination among Apple, Facebook, YouTube and others to completely take him off their platforms at the exact same time. How this doesn't bother HN is crazy.

It's truly crazy how YouTube takes down Alex Jones easily but ElsaGate pedo like predatory channels are still thriving on their platform, with millions of views and comment threads full of cryptic information exchange of the worst kind one can imagine. And it's still up. Insanity prevails.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#49

Post by knuththetruth »

est wrote: post #36
mapgrep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source False. There has been a lot of independent reporting on this (even if credits Intercept for getting it first, and yes I work there). NYT confirmed based on "two people with knowledge of the plans." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/technology/china-google-c... WSJ confirmed based on "a person familiar with the matt…

well, it's good to know the same two people are verified again and again. I do really appreciate those links. Are there any further development besides the initial "Intercept report" details? My best guess is that Google China somehow partnered with a major Android ROM developer in China to provide a search component in Android system, some kind of integration with "Custom Search API". It's nothing like the full sear…

It’s odd that you’re willing to so vehemently question sourced reporting, while simultaneously postulating, without any evidence, that a very narrow, favorable to Google scenario is likely to be the case.

Re: Google Needs to Come Clean About Its Chinese Plans

#50

Post by bobjordan »

ardy42 wrote: post #30
bobjordan wrote: post #28

I'm an American, own and operate two Chinese companies (an operations/engineering consulting company and a factory). I was here when Google left. From the end user's viewpoint, internet censorship has only become more strict. While VPN access has never been totally unavailable, it can be painful to use. I've changed my browsing habits to settle for using Bing more than I otherwise would have. At the same time, I'm th…

> It will not affect Google's offerings outside of China. But while inside their walls, you got to follow their rules. No. Having operations in China gives the Chinese government leverage over you, which they're starting to use to pressure companies to toe their line even outside of the PRC. For examples, see the recent articles regarding airline's treatment of Taiwan on their websites [1]. See also how Mercedes-Benz…

Any company operating in China must necessarily welcome a new stakeholder to the table, which are the Chinese citizens, themselves. With that, Chinese citizens are on the whole proud nationalists. Flag waving, chest thumping Nationalists, proud of their country and protecting against any perceived or real slight. Sure, many of them are likely Party members, raised from birth. So, it seems hard to discern the line here between it being an actual concerted government action against these companies vs. just simply a function of a gang of these loudly screaming nationalist citizens, connected through social media, calling out the companies.
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