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Katie's New Face

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Katie's New Face

#201

Post by ctrlc-root »

ClassyJacket wrote: post #94
crescentfresh wrote: post #47

As a father to two so-far-healthy young boys, one soon to be a teenager I feel devastated at the thought of either of them having to endure the level of emotional chaos that Katie went through the moments leading up to her suicide attempt. My stomach goes into a knot at the thought. I mean gosh, it was a cheating boyfriend. I don't know what to do to protect them from such a path.

Live in any other country than America, I guess, so an emotional person can't get their hands on a gun in two seconds.

If you're arguing for proper storage of guns, I completely agree with you. If you're arguing that we should reduce gun ownership to save lives, you're ignoring how many lives are saved by private ownership of guns. Unfortunately, no one keeps track of this statistic, but the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0]. This study only provides an estimate, but still, compare that to 13,000 firearm related murders [1] and 22,000 suicides [2, Table 6 on page 33]. I think we need more data but from what I've seen so far it seems to me private gun ownership is a net benefit.

0: https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15 1: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr66/nvsr66_06.pdf

Re: Katie's New Face

#202

Post by trcollinson »

sytelus wrote: post #194

While the two were outside talking about how upset Katie was, she went into the bathroom, put the barrel of Robert’s .308-caliber hunting rifle below her chin, and pulled the trigger. When Robert kicked in the locked door, he found his little sister covered in blood. “And her face is gone,” he recalled Who puts a loaded hunting rifle in so accessible way in their homes?

Maybe I’m missing part of the article but who says it was just laying around loaded? It obviously wasn’t locked up as well as it could have been. But I’m sure she knew how to load the rifle and pull the trigger. It’s not a complicated process at all.

Re: Katie's New Face

#203

Post by tempestn »

ctrlc-root wrote: post #200
TomMckenny wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if there are no instruments at hand that allow the young to act on such a disastrous suicidal impulse, at least some of these incidents could be prevented.

If you're arguing for proper storage of guns, I completely agree with you. If you're arguing that we should reduce gun ownership to save lives, you're ignoring how many lives are saved by private ownership of guns. Unfortunately, no one keeps track of this statistic, but the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0]. This study only provides an estimate, but still, compare that…

> the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0]

From that link:

> Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

Firearms being used in self defense =/= lives saved by firearms.

Re: Katie's New Face

#204

Post by fjsolwmv »

buxtehude wrote: post #128
SpikeDad wrote: post #95

That was a difficult article (pictures actually) to read. It shows (to me at least) how intimately our humanity is linked to a face that passes our own internal pattern matching heuristics. I'm not proud to admit my initial thought was not how difficult life must be for her but rather how deformed her face was. But then I was proud that my (our) inherent human intelligence and morality was able to put that thought as…

For many who have facial deformities, depending on how severe, every day can be a challenge as they are continually reminded by the condition they live with - and potentially the inherent limitations (actual or self-imposed) of that condition. This can be a very negative space to be in - day in and day out. I urge all of you with children, to please foster empathy in your little people for other people less fortunate…

"less fortunate" is a strange way to describe the victim of a condition that isn't bad luck, it's a moral crime perpetrated against her by all the pet around her.

Re: Katie's New Face

#205

Post by creep »

monkeynotes wrote: post #21

She's pretty brave to go through all of that, so much pain in so many ways. I think had this been my own situation I'd rather have some kind of plastic prosthetic than someone else's face and a lifetime of rejection treatment. I just don't think my psychology could handle the physical and emotional pain of accepting another face. That said, I know little about living with the alternative that she was dealing with. Cr…

I was thinking the same thing. I'd rather wear a "mask" that kinda looks like me, or that looks like a mask, than literally someone else's face. Even the thought of another person's organs bothers me. Not just because the organ isn't mine, but because it was once another person's.

Re: Katie's New Face

#206

Post by ctrlc-root »

tempestn wrote: post #203
ctrlc-root wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're arguing for proper storage of guns, I completely agree with you. If you're arguing that we should reduce gun ownership to save lives, you're ignoring how many lives are saved by private ownership of guns. Unfortunately, no one keeps track of this statistic, but the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0]. This study only provides an estimate, but still, compare that…

> the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0] From that link: > Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 20…

Indeed, it turns out it's complicated. That's why I said we need more data. I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

Edit: posted in a different comment but including here as well.

> A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.

Re: Katie's New Face

#207

Post by fjsolwmv »

ctrlc-root wrote: post #201
ClassyJacket wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Live in any other country than America, I guess, so an emotional person can't get their hands on a gun in two seconds.

If you're arguing for proper storage of guns, I completely agree with you. If you're arguing that we should reduce gun ownership to save lives, you're ignoring how many lives are saved by private ownership of guns. Unfortunately, no one keeps track of this statistic, but the CDC estimates between 500,000 and 3,000,000 lives are saved in any given year [0]. This study only provides an estimate, but still, compare that…

You wildly misquote your source, which makes it hard to take your comment as good faith.

The source actually says:

> Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008. > On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey.

It is a huge leap to say that approximately every defensive use of a firearm prevented a death. It does not come anywhere close to passing the sniff test, as we don't see unarmed people dying of crime in the massive numbers implied by your misquote.

Re: Katie's New Face

#208

Post by Markoff »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #76
Markoff wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

better solution would be not having guns at all, you don't see these suicides in Europe or very rarely due to limited access

I see this as on par with banning alcohol to drastically reduce drunk driving. People tend to not support that one because they see, though they would likely never formulate the thought in such a fashion, that having the freedom to buy and consume alcohol is worth the trade off of people drunk driving and the lives ruined by it. Of course, other actions are done to reduce the harm of drunk driving, but people are not…

i don't find these comparable, at least not in Europe, drink driving cause very few deaths in car accidents statistics which are already drastically better than they have been and pretty much everyone adult drinks at least occasionally, I seriously doubt pretty much every adult in US shoot gun occasionally let alone own it

but I don't see problem with ban on alcohol even if it would save only few people killed by drunk drivers, because it would decrease cases of domestic violence and violence in general and most importantly for me we would get completely rid off those hordes of drunk Britons roaming our cities, also no drunks (homeless) in streets and cleaner public transport and streets would be nice, so it sounds like great trade off, not because of drunk drivers deaths which are really rare to ban alcohol from majority of adult population, but because of other factors,

so great idea and I say this as someone who was basically alcoholic for a year in my first job in China where we drink spirit (baiju) during lunch break and then after work, then after switching jobs basically stopped drinking completely and now back in Europe me and wife consume maybe 1-2 bottles of wine per month so it's not like we are abstainers that it would not affect me, although i think charging like 500-1000% tax on alcohol and raising agree limit to 30-40 years and strictly enforcing it would seem more realistic regarding voters than complete ban, after all those people with alcohol issues started usually very young

Re: Katie's New Face

#209

Post by fjsolwmv »

clarkmoody wrote: post #111
crescentfresh wrote: post #47

As a father to two so-far-healthy young boys, one soon to be a teenager I feel devastated at the thought of either of them having to endure the level of emotional chaos that Katie went through the moments leading up to her suicide attempt. My stomach goes into a knot at the thought. I mean gosh, it was a cheating boyfriend. I don't know what to do to protect them from such a path.

Show your boys this article. Own up to your mistakes, and teach your boys not to repeat them. Watch how they handle disappointment in smaller things, helping them to cope. Maybe this article will open their eyes to how decisions made in a moment of passion can affect their lives and the lives of many others. You will not be able to protect them from everything. Start with that understanding and prepare.

What do "boys" have to with causing a person with an unstable life and a mental illness attempting a gun suicide?

Re: Katie's New Face

#210

Post by bdowling »

mmirate wrote: post #168
40acres wrote: post #35

Jesus that was difficult. How the hell did she even survive the gunshot wound?

Looks like she aimed almost completely parallel to her skull, causing the bullet to expend most of its energy on bone. It barely had any energy left by the time it reached her brain. Her choice of aim was likely just the first thing to come to mind, given her short stature compared to the length of a Remington rifle. Had she thought on this one iota more, tilted her neck down and placed the muzzle onto her forehead .…

The linked article says nothing about the rifle in question being a bolt-action, Remington or other make, and nothing about how the rifle or ammunition was stored. Do you have some other source for your information or are you speculating?
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