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Software development requires servant leaders

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Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#181

Post by commandlinefan »

humanrebar wrote: post #64
phakding wrote: post #32

Why does software industry keep coming up with this sort of thing all the time? I worked as structural engineer before becoming software engineer and we never had to invent different kind of leadership and procedures or change office floor plans or hire outsider non-engineers as our (scrum) masters, or talk about the client as stake holders etc. Sorry about hurting your agile feelings!

Software is incredibly open ended. Maybe even more open ended than writing in English because software can be written in several languages or even in brand new ones. The lack of natural structure in the work means communication and collaboration among the development team(s) is all that more important.

Structural engineering, or any other kind of real engineering (which includes every time of engineering except software "engineering") can also be reduced down to pure math. It's complicated math, and not everybody can comprehend it, but what engineers do boils down to lots and lots of equations. The only place this really applied in software is in efficiency calculations: is approach _x_ faster than approach _y_? In general this is considered a waste of time by most of the "stakeholders" (that is, the people who are signing the paychecks), at least until it's too late.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#182

Post by davedx »

agentultra wrote: post #141

You have to be careful being a servant leader. It's often a thankless job. And most of the time other people will be taking credit for your work. It's not noble to suffer like that -- it can be damaging to your health. It's an effective position however and comes with it's own rewards. I personally relish seeing my team grow and the people I help mentor flourish. I recommend getting a good therapist and taking small,…

When I was a Scrum Master, I found the role itself fine, and I could have done it for a long time despite the thankless nature you mention. Lack of monetary compensation for the job I was doing was what made me move on in the end, same as usual.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#183

Post by zerr »

JimboOmega wrote: post #173
agentultra wrote: post #141

You have to be careful being a servant leader. It's often a thankless job. And most of the time other people will be taking credit for your work. It's not noble to suffer like that -- it can be damaging to your health. It's an effective position however and comes with it's own rewards. I personally relish seeing my team grow and the people I help mentor flourish. I recommend getting a good therapist and taking small,…

It's all I've ever wanted to do since I first heard about it in Joel in Software many years ago. The people side of Software Engineering is immensely more rewarding for me than the technical one. It's so satisfying to watch new hires in particular grow and get comfortable. Sadly, I don't often get to do it, and am usually pushed into more pure IC roles. It's also really rare among companies I've worked at. Turnover i…

Could you please mention some particular example for which you'd be acknowledged from below?

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#184

Post by jdmichal »

repolfx wrote: post #114
jdmichal wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every structure and bridge and road and tunnel project is obviously unique also. Unique terrain, unique architecture, unique engineering. If the idea is to look to other engineering to improve this, again, it's not like software is some kind of special.

They're only unique in trivial ways. Roads are made of the same material everywhere - they're different only in some strict geometric sense. Meanwhile even very ambitious tunnelling projects like the Gotthard Base Tunnel, if you watch documentaries about them, they only hit a very small number of really unexpected issues even over long periods of time. Tunnelling is an incredibly predictable business. You buy some TB…

As kaspy points out in his, this is just more software engineering hubris playing out. I took architectural drafting classes in high school, and there are tons of technical differences and considerations that go into building design. And I was only dealing with drawing them, forget about having to have all that in my head and actually being able to make decisions on it.

To make what I hope is an apt analogy back to software, you are basically saying, "Oh, their job is easy. All they have to do is follow established design patterns!" But, of course, we also have design patterns... Why don't we say the same thing about ourselves? Because we know that that's complete bullshit; there's a lot of thought and wisdom that goes into actually building stuff around those patterns.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#185

Post by Floegipoky »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #123

I can't stand the phrase "servant leader". You can have a "good leader" without any other adjectives. The word "servant" is a loaded word in a way. And, has anyone heard of a "servant" that works just under the "servant leader"? Kind of a meta-slight against any group to be blessed with a "servant leader" instead of just a good one. Edit: Consider flipping the phrase, "Leader Servant". Now hopefully the silliness and…

I disagree that the phrase is meaningless. This leadership philosophy is very different from traditional Western ideals of leadership, though tbh I don't think the article did a very good job describing it. I first learned about it from the best leader I've ever worked for, David Cancel (CPO at the time). I absolutely considered myself blessed to have the good fortune to work for someone whose primary focus was making my work easier, rather than wringing every last drop of efficiency out of me. Perhaps it's a difference that one needs to experience to appreciate.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#186

Post by Floegipoky »

RobertRoberts wrote: post #157
cvoss wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paradox in terms is entirely intentional. It is supposed to make you stop and think, "How can this be?", because it pushes back against many qualities often traditionally associated to leaders. So in fact, I stand corrected, and the phrase has done it's job in communicating to you exactly what was intended. It is not meaningless after all! (Also, I agree that to self-identify as a servant-leader is not a humble t…

Good leaders don't need labels, only false/deceptive ones do. While I appreciate the absurdity of your counter argument I really doubt that corporate management is intending to be vague/confusing for the sake of instigating discussion or thoughtfulness in the title of mid-management. Ever heard of a CEO being called a "servant leader"? If so, who gave him that title? Again, my personal experience is abusive leaders u…

>> I really doubt that corporate management is intending to be vague/confusing for the sake of instigating discussion or thoughtfulness in the title of mid-management.

I wish I had a source to quote you, my google-fu is failing me now but there's a school of thought that, in a mature organization, the primary role of the executive leadership team is to manage corporate culture. If the leadership team is trying to foster a culture described by the term "servant leadership", then they definitely would want to provoke discussion of what that looks like and how that's different than other organizations and cultures people have worked in.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#187

Post by JimboOmega »

zerr wrote: post #183
JimboOmega wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all I've ever wanted to do since I first heard about it in Joel in Software many years ago. The people side of Software Engineering is immensely more rewarding for me than the technical one. It's so satisfying to watch new hires in particular grow and get comfortable. Sadly, I don't often get to do it, and am usually pushed into more pure IC roles. It's also really rare among companies I've worked at. Turnover i…

Could you please mention some particular example for which you'd be acknowledged from below?

Somebody who learns a new skill and thanks you for it?

Or - I know I thank my boss when I get to work on the things that I like, or when a complicated interaction with people outside the team is handled well.

Honestly it's really quite satisfying, just to unblock somebody. At the IC level usually it's small things like figuring out why the dev environment won't load or the tests keep failing, but they're thankfully and it's fulfilling to me.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#188

Post by draw_down »

allochthon wrote: post #155
agentultra wrote: post #141

You have to be careful being a servant leader. It's often a thankless job. And most of the time other people will be taking credit for your work. It's not noble to suffer like that -- it can be damaging to your health. It's an effective position however and comes with it's own rewards. I personally relish seeing my team grow and the people I help mentor flourish. I recommend getting a good therapist and taking small,…

I think part of the challenge is fostering a culture in which people are discouraged from taking credit for other people's work; e.g., doing so is seen by most as being tacky and tasteless. That is a different culture from one that prevails in many American companies, where the rewards go the other way. But I think it's one worth striving for.

Someone taking credit for a peer's work is different than someone taking credit for work that their manager helped organize.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#189

Post by draw_down »

JimboOmega wrote: post #173
agentultra wrote: post #141

You have to be careful being a servant leader. It's often a thankless job. And most of the time other people will be taking credit for your work. It's not noble to suffer like that -- it can be damaging to your health. It's an effective position however and comes with it's own rewards. I personally relish seeing my team grow and the people I help mentor flourish. I recommend getting a good therapist and taking small,…

It's all I've ever wanted to do since I first heard about it in Joel in Software many years ago. The people side of Software Engineering is immensely more rewarding for me than the technical one. It's so satisfying to watch new hires in particular grow and get comfortable. Sadly, I don't often get to do it, and am usually pushed into more pure IC roles. It's also really rare among companies I've worked at. Turnover i…

Boy do I wish I had those problems. I'm being pushed in the opposite direction, to focus more on the organizational valence of problems, instead of working in a more technical capacity. People are mostly boring and working with them is such a pain. Always needing to explain yourself and persuade them... blecchh. I have written probably a dozen documents, all in slightly different contexts, where I explain in detail the workings of a particular system, which fundamentally is very simple, operating on keys and values. It's not complicated, and explaining it over and over and over again sucks.

Re: Software development requires servant leaders

#190

Post by ser0 »

Floegipoky wrote: post #186
RobertRoberts wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good leaders don't need labels, only false/deceptive ones do. While I appreciate the absurdity of your counter argument I really doubt that corporate management is intending to be vague/confusing for the sake of instigating discussion or thoughtfulness in the title of mid-management. Ever heard of a CEO being called a "servant leader"? If so, who gave him that title? Again, my personal experience is abusive leaders u…

>> I really doubt that corporate management is intending to be vague/confusing for the sake of instigating discussion or thoughtfulness in the title of mid-management. I wish I had a source to quote you, my google-fu is failing me now but there's a school of thought that, in a mature organization, the primary role of the executive leadership team is to manage corporate culture. If the leadership team is trying to fos…

I believe what you are thinking of is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_hierarchy
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