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When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

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Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#121

Post by halbritt »

FlipperBucket wrote: post #92
halbritt wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fourth amendment absolutely applies to hotel rooms. https://www.gsblaw.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-pr... https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048... From my very basic understanding of what transpired, the hotel security were trespassing by entering a rented room. I'm not altogether familiar with state law in Nevada, but that could certainly be argued in California.

> The fourth amendment absolutely applies to hotel rooms. Hotel Security aren't the federal government. The 4th amendment? C'mon.

Agreed. I was suggesting that this was a 4a issue, but replying to he comment above that we have protections similar to the ones in their country.

As I mentioned, this sounds like a case of trespassing. If it were me, I’d be pursuing charges on that basis.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#122

Post by kayfox »

Someone1234 wrote: post #65
strictnein wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$75 for french onion soup, a caesar salad, and two beers $55 for a bad 18" NY style pepperoni pizza There's an 18% gratuity and a $10 delivery fee for every order.

That's astonishingly expensive. I bet you could get a local pizza place to deliver an 18" Pepperoni for half that, let alone the $10 fee.

No pizza places deliver to rooms in casinos on the strip, you have to go down and meet the driver.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#124

Post by fatbird »

observer12 wrote: post #112
fatbird wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a hotel I stayed at in Hinton, Alberta (pop. 15,000, which had a bad drug epidemic at the time), the laminated hotel security card on the bed specifically said that, at nighttime, if someone knocks on the door claiming to be from the hotel, first call the front desk to verify that a houseman had actually been sent. This is a solved problem.

The problem with what happened at Defcon is some of the security were refusing to be verified or show IDs.

Which wouldn't be a problem if the hotel made an official policy of "guests may call the front desk to verify the security guard, both of whom will co-operate in verification" (and enforced it).

The problem, as I read it, is that the hotels started more intrusive checking by security guards without considering or providing for the needs of some guests to be less than fully co-operative (for good reasons).

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#125

Post by fatbird »

DEADBEEFC0FFEE wrote: post #117
observer12 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with what happened at Defcon is some of the security were refusing to be verified or show IDs.

Surely if you think your room is being invaded, you call the actual police. Security guards are there to protect property.

It's not the you necesarily think you're facing an invasion, but if someone knocks on my door claiming to be hotel security, I'd much prefer to be able to verify them before opening the door. There are lots of options between "open the door to someone unknown" and "call the police".

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#126

Post by jimnotgym »

Kalium wrote: post #119
jimnotgym wrote: post #10

I am not part of the DEFCON community, but every year I hear about warrantless searches, equipment seized art the border and hacker arrests. I wonder why anyone, not least security researchers, would take the risk of going there. Just so as you guys know, we have conference facilities in Europe...

You're absolutely right! Europe has conference facilities! Of course, most places in Europe also have much stricter laws on guns. Many places aren't quite into the whole "free speech" thing in the way Americans are. These things are pretty important to a large number of attendees. DEFCON is probably best regarded as a regional North American hacker con that reflects the culture and history of North American hackers.…

I'm not quite following, apart from firing guns, what is it you can do in Vegas that took can't do in Europe? Or are you saying the guns are what makes DEFCON?

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#127

Post by forgottenpass »

reaperducer wrote: post #71

All of the big resorts in Las Vegas are going through a period of change regarding security. It's been a very traumatic 10 months for that industry in that location. Caesars, and the other hotels, are trying to find a balance between the security needs of the guests and the security needs of the staff. It's going to take time to work everything out. Just a few weeks ago, the hotels reached an agreement the maids unio…

But chances are it's wasn't malicious.

The insidious aspects of society usually aren't. That doesn't change much.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#128

Post by forgottenpass »

jimnotgym wrote: post #10

I am not part of the DEFCON community, but every year I hear about warrantless searches, equipment seized art the border and hacker arrests. I wonder why anyone, not least security researchers, would take the risk of going there. Just so as you guys know, we have conference facilities in Europe...

I wonder why anyone, not least security researchers, would take the risk of going there.

Because this is what fear has done to the world. As much as I hate the status quo, caving in and not going when I've done nothing wrong only serves to perpetuate it.

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#129

Post by equalunique »

I would like to draw attention to the following statement from the story by Katie Mousouris, linked to in the OP's article:

>The hotel employee ID card I was finally shown had the photo rubbed off. It was only shown after I had been screamed at & the door pounded on, which was after I had politely asked to verify their IDs by calling downstairs.

Was the ID badge even legit? Unless the latching lock was in place on the door, these people representing themselves as hotel security personnel should have been able to open the door with their own master keys, correct? Whey should they scream and beat at the door after being politely asked a perfectly reasonable question/request?

Consider that these were not legit security personnel, and that the hotel may have been working with some undisclosed entity to target select DEFCON attendees.

Edit: Seeing how the 4th amendment prevents the government from accessing a hotel room, why on earth wouldn't a state actor parter with a private entity to gain access?

Re: When Security Compromises Security – The Caesars/Defcon debacle

#130

Post by Kalium »

jimnotgym wrote: post #126
Kalium wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right! Europe has conference facilities! Of course, most places in Europe also have much stricter laws on guns. Many places aren't quite into the whole "free speech" thing in the way Americans are. These things are pretty important to a large number of attendees. DEFCON is probably best regarded as a regional North American hacker con that reflects the culture and history of North American hackers.…

I'm not quite following, apart from firing guns, what is it you can do in Vegas that took can't do in Europe? Or are you saying the guns are what makes DEFCON?

People routinely and unremarkably carry weapons upon their person at DEFCON. It's a reasonably common event, to the point where early pictures of DEFCON events sometimes contained more guns than laptops. The yearly shoot is a social fixture.

Guns are an easy example. Lockpicks are another - the UK does not smile on them. I'm saying you cannot readily relocate DEFCON to a randomly selected European conference venue without fundamentally transforming it into something that is no longer the DEFCON we know and love.

To put it another way, your suggestion and incomprehension underscores that you understand DEFCON as a conference. An event where people talking at halls of other people is the main thing that matters. I'm trying to communicate that it is a convention and cultural touchstone enabled by the unique confluence of laws in Nevada and the willingness of casinos to cooperate with wealthy groups.

It's very easy to suggest that an event be moved somewhere else. Why not move Jeremy Corbyn's next rally to, I dunno, Canada? There are halls for rent there too! It's perhaps more subtle to understand that there are other things than bare physical requirements that tie an event and a place together.

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