Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

minnesota.cbslocal.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 180 posts

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#111

Post by CPLX »

mikorym wrote: post #105
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

The article does not elucidate the complete circumstances of the girl's hospitalisation and due to confidentiality, can not. That is enough reason for me to consider this article to be sensasional. It is impossible to say who is at fault. In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors, and in this case she may simply be lucky that she did not get seriously ill. The article itself contain…

It’s not impossible to say who was at fault.

The facts of the case are that the hospital engaged with several judges and a police department all of whom ultimately concluded that they had no legal basis to hold her. Yet they had been doing so anyways.

As far as I can tell determining who is at fault is exactly what the legal system is for.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#112

Post by mschuster91 »

mnm1 wrote: post #74

This is one way to make a profit off the patient. I wonder if it would have happened if she had no insurance. Highly unlikely as the hospital wouldn't be able to milk the patient for money. A second issue is these social workers whose main goal seems to want to remove children from parents and break up families in general for what I can only say is their own sick amusement. This is a fucked up job that gives way too…

> This is a fucked up job that gives way too much power to people who really don't care about others and often are unsuited to work with others.

The problem is that CPS (or equivalent) jobs aren't nearly paid well enough, with an ever rising load of cases (for example due to morons calling CPS on their neighbors for letting their kids play in the garden). This results in underpaid, probably underqualified, and massively overworked employees. Which in turn often leads to employees preemptively taking kids out of families because they're afraid they might be on the hook if they leave the kids, but don't have the time to properly assess the situation.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#113

Post by DanBC »

mnw21cam wrote: post #109
lylecubed wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unconscionable to suggest that hospitals be allowed to legally kidnap people because of something as hand wavy as 'some homeless are mentally ill'.

Committing someone to enforced treatment is an absolutely massive action. In the UK, it requires a police officer, doctor, and social worker to all agree that it is necessary.

It doesn't require police.

There are different forms of detention, and different forms of forced treatment.

These are described (for England) in the Mental Health Act.

This is what it means to be sectioned - you are detained under section of the mental health act.

The most common sections are:

Section 136: a police officer can detain you in a public place and take you to a place of safety to be assessed. This requires one police officer. It lasts a maximum of 24 hours (but it can be extended by 12 hours).

Section 2: this is a short 28 day hold for assessment and treatment. It requires 2 doctors and an AMHP. Traditionally AMHPs were social workers, but they don't have to be and there are increasing numbers of nurses becoming AMHPs.

Section 3: this is a six month hold for treatment. It requires 2 doctors and an AMHP.

Section 4 is another short term hold (72 hours) that can be used in emergencies if there's only 1 doctor available.

https://www.rethink.org/living-with-mental-illness/mental-he...

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#114

Post by revscat »

mikorym wrote: post #105
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

The article does not elucidate the complete circumstances of the girl's hospitalisation and due to confidentiality, can not. That is enough reason for me to consider this article to be sensasional. It is impossible to say who is at fault. In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors, and in this case she may simply be lucky that she did not get seriously ill. The article itself contain…

She signed a release form waving that confidentiality. Your dismissiveness is therefore no rebuttal.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#115

Post by tssva »

mikorym wrote: post #105
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

The article does not elucidate the complete circumstances of the girl's hospitalisation and due to confidentiality, can not. That is enough reason for me to consider this article to be sensasional. It is impossible to say who is at fault. In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors, and in this case she may simply be lucky that she did not get seriously ill. The article itself contain…

The patient signed a privacy release form provided by Mayo allowing them to freely discuss the case with CNN. Despite this the hospital has chosen to continue to refuse to answer questions under the guise of patient confidentiality.

Since the hospital legally can present their side of the story and evidence to support it and have chosen not to, it is reasonable to accept the patient's account as accurate.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#116

Post by tssva »

luddaite wrote: post #53
ars wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can easily see this whole situation occurring because of poor communication and the culture of paternalism in medicine. I can see it starting that way, but there is an absolute line the hospital should have never crossed: People have the right to chose what medical treatment they want. They crossed the line.

We don't know the full story and likely never will. What if the doctors were correct in their assessment that the patient was unfit to make medical decisions and that she was being coerced by parents to act against her own best interest? I would be interested in looking at her medical record to try and understand what was really going on but that is unlikely to ever happen. There is really bad information asymmetry h…

The hospital is only legally forbidden from sharing the patient's medical records without the patient's consent. The patient legally granted permission for the hospital to release medical information to CNN and the hospital has continued to refuse to do so.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#117

Post by ramblerman »

mikorym wrote: post #105
burfog wrote: post #2

There is a huge conflict of interest here. The hospital makes diagnosis, requests that the person lose their autonomy, gets control over that person, financially benefits from that control, and can use that control to hide any misdeeds or contrary evidence. There is also a profound disrespect for human autonomy. Hospitals disrespect autonomy for many people in many ways, with the most common being when birthing mothe…

The article does not elucidate the complete circumstances of the girl's hospitalisation and due to confidentiality, can not. That is enough reason for me to consider this article to be sensasional. It is impossible to say who is at fault. In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors, and in this case she may simply be lucky that she did not get seriously ill. The article itself contain…

> In general, it often happens that people think they know better than doctors,

And people are allowed to make stupid decisions! It's not the state's responsibility to automatically defer all control to the residing 'expert'.

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#118

Post by lapinot »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #101
lapinot wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is plain stupid. A for-profit hospital will benefit from abusing any patient while a political abuse only targets a small portion of opponents. And political abuse is an issue of the counter-powers in your political system, not of the way hospitals work: a functional political system will have functional public hospitals, but a functional economy will have private hospitals whose interests diverge substantially…

> This is plain stupid. Not stupid you are just young and ill informed. > While on a phone call with Helen Thomas about the Watergate break-in, King pulled the phone cord from the wall. She was held against her will in a California hotel room and forcefully sedated by a psychiatrist after a physical struggle with five men that left her needing stitches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Mitchell

I'm not saying this does not exist, i'm pretty aware that this is a real problem. I'm just saying that this remark--even if true and on point--doesn't constitute a valid argument against public hospitals since (1) this problem of public hospitals has already a much more widespread cousin in the private sector and (2) it is not intrinsically a problem of the hospital but a governance issue (which is called power abuse and has a lot of other symptoms).

Re: Parents Break Teen Out of Mayo Clinic

#120

Post by tialaramex »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #92
briandear wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, guardianship or consevatorship (when the person is over 18,) imparts a fiduciary duty on the person/organization to provide for the needs of their ward. So the ability of Mayo to “financially benefit” could be subject to debate. They assume financial responsibility with the assumption of guardianship. In terms of Mayo, they are one of the best hospitals in the world, current situation notwithstanding. It isn…

> xcept Alfie was terminal and had a minimal chance of survival and the U.K. government still refused to allow him to leave the U.K. Permission to take him abroad was denied by the UK courts, not the UK government.

Also that was a proxy war. Did you think Alfie's parents looked like they had piles of cash lying around to file spurious UK Supreme Court appeals? No "Christian Concern" bankrolls this sort of thing because apparently ensuring babies die as slowly as possible (preferably in agony) is what "Christian" means these days along with denying the ordinary civil custom of marriage to people for being Gay, shutting down access to abortion and making sure children are indoctrinated into Christianity under the pretence that it's part of the surrounding "culture" and not straight up religious brainwashing...

They're an unintentional advertisement for the benefits of secular government policies.

Post reply on HN