Earlier quoted context omitted.
The economist had e.g. a leader like this: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2005/06/16/after-the-fall It is possible to call bubbles, especially if they are as large and data is transparently available. It is really hard to tell the moment when it will pop, especially if it is connected with the government like in the soviet union or in China.
I'm not arguing the possibility of seeing them but whether you visibly flag them or not. A bad prediction might turn into a self fulfilling prophecy. At the very least it could make a dent in the people's trust. You do this on an election year and you'll pay for it. You might get the shaft regardless if your prediction makes someone powerful look bad. So when you're playing close to home positive stuff gets the fanfa…
Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
131–140 of 187 posts
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is China's position that they never invaded Tibet. The Yuan dynasty invaded and conquered Tibet, but they don't count since they were Mongolians. It is weird logic to be sure, but there it is. Otherwise Tibet was supposed to be Chinese territory afterwards even if the Chinese dynasties following the Yuan didn't actively govern it and mostly left them to their own devices.
Well then based on what actually happened (invading a county where there were other countries people & troops there since before the founding of modern china) it's not true to say that they haven't invaded anyone. Will they 'not invade' taiwan next? Invading and then declaring it was ours historically is still invading.
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
HSR wasn't funded by the government however, at least not completely. Well, this is where it gets complicated: China Railway is a SOE, so it is technically the government. It took out a lot of debt to do HSR, and technically that isn't considered public debt and is rather listed as corporate debt (if SOE debt was considered public debt, China's public debt would obviously be much higher than the USA). Anyways, see ht…
I am very aware that, as I am native Chinese. CRS is SOE, but when they constructed each individual HSR project, they got the investment from local governments, as each local governments knew that HSR would greatly benefit the economy. Just like HSR project between Beijing and Shanghai, which got the investment from seven local governments, if you can read Chinese: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/京沪高速铁路 The whole proje…
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#134When you compare the cost of Belt and Road to wars that cost trillions of dollars, the money spent is peanuts. The belt and road is already working. China-Finland train link connects Nordic countries with China in 10-12 days. They carry heavy and expensive machinery and machine parts between China and EU. Too heavy for air-travel economically and needs to arrive relatively fast.
I don't think your example shows that, and the article disagrees with you: "The value of freight between Europe and Yiwu, a much-touted overland rail hub near Shanghai, came to 2.27 billion yuan ($330 million) in the first four months of this year [snip] China’s top four ports alone process about the same value of cargo every three hours." Also see this graph from the article: https://www.bloomberg.com/toaster/v2/cha…
In nominal terms the US is the world's largest economy. Let's put it at ~$20tn gdp nominal with moderate growth. EU is about ~$17tn with less than moderate growth say and China is about ~$13tn and growing fast. Problem is that EU and China are at opposite ends of the Eurasian landmass. Anything that reduces trade times and cost between the poles of this massive continent and interconnects a combined ~$30tn economy is going to have an enormous impact.
But even so the article contradicts itself.
“The overwhelming majority of China's trade with Europe is by sea and air. Overland routes don't cut it”
What the detailed stats show is that by value rail is 2% and road is 6% of total trade. (Air is 28%). Take into account that,
“Just 10 years ago, regular direct freight services from China to Europe did not exist. Today, they connect roughly 35 Chinese cities with 34 European cities.”[1]
And that,
“Rail services are considerably cheaper than air and faster than sea”[2]
So 2% of trade captured in 10 years. So if people stop thinking in terms of years and start thinking in terms of decades it is obvious that improvements in land logistics will far surpass those of sea and air. By the middle of the century it is anybody's guess what fraction of total trade will be capture by road and rail but it could be very significant. From my reading most analyses put Khazakstan as one of the major bottlenecks, an upgrade there could have huge knock on effects. (And that's not even taking into consideration different sized rail gauges.)
[1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-china-europe-railways
[2] https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/180228_fig1.p...
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunally we have diverged from economic arguments to purely political ones. And politically, you've got what you've got, especially as a small country. Things could go massively worse. The USSR had complete freedom of action and it was pretty benign for several reasons. Maybe you have feeling that it sucked big time, but the reference point should be 1984 in real life.
From my last comment: > USSR/satellite state relationships were nothing like a normal economic relationship. How am I bringing up politics? From your last reply: >The USSR had complete freedom of action and it was pretty benign for several reasons. Maybe you have feeling that it sucked big time, but the reference point should be 1984 in real life. I don't understand what you are saying here in any way. But, relating…
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#136The article presents a chart of top investments. The top 3 are all in Malaysia, costing from $8.4B to $14.1B. OK, China is spending a lot of money in this Belt & Road thing.
The article details how the China-Myanmar gas and oil pipelines (a $2.5B investment) are under-utilized. Now we see that some of that money could have been spent more wisely.
The article points out that the majority of China's trade with Europe is by sea and the Malacca Strait is a choking point. The article doesn't say, but it seems to validate that the both investments above are good ideas:
* This validates that the vast investment in Malaysia is a really good idea. By having Malaysia's economy integrated with, or even reliant on China's economy, China secures the trade route by sea.
* This also validates that the China-Myanmar pipelines may also be a good idea, even if they are under-utilized now. It hedges the risk of the Malaysia investment, and gives China more leverage when it comes to issues in the Malacca Strait. Even at peace time, Malaysia, Indonesia, or the US could threaten to deny Chinese ships passage of the Strait and apply a lot of leverage to China. That leverage is gone with the Myanmar pipelines. It is under-utilized now and will probably remain under-utilized because it's a strategic tool.
The article then shows how the Soviet economy went down due to investments in Siberia. I strongly feel it is the wrong comparison: not only because Malaysia and Myanmar are very different places from Siberia, but also because Siberia is part of Russia while Malaysia and Myanmar are not part of China. I am not implying that foreign investments are automatically better than domestic investments, but the analogy is a poor one here.
The article also shows how China's domestic investment is shifting from the east coast to the west inland areas, apparently trying to draw a better analogy with Russia's decline. That looks like a more valid point to me, but why the sudden shift to domestic investments near the end? Probably it is because the author wants to conclude the article with the following sentence:
> China’s rise this century was driven by its embrace of world trade and the coastal provinces most exposed to it. In this retreat inland, it’s sowing the seeds of decline.
But if the reader still remembers the earlier parts of the article, they should see that China is doing several things:
* Foreign investments along the traditional maritime trade routes -- most notably Malaysia
* Foreign investments along the new land trade routes -- I understand this to hedge the risk of maritime trade routes being blockaded
* Domestic investments to less-developed areas
This is hardly a "retreat inland", it is diversification of investments. Sounds good to me.
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#137Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
From 3rd paragraph TFA, and unlike 1910-1950s USA, Like the Soviet Union in the 1970s, China is coming to the end of a long labor-force boom, and hoping that an orgy of investment will keep the old magic going while stabilizing its fraying frontiers. Cornelius Vanderbilt wasn't trying to overcome a graying America or shore up the Monroe Doctrine by building railroads in Latin America and Africa. If anything, I fail t…
I wasn't trying to create any definite story, I'm just saying that it is easy to make a historical analogy depending on what you wantto take away from it. China is not the Soviet Union any more than it is the United States. Doing away with the belt and road initiative by painting it as a Soviet vanity project seems too simple, the country is communist only in name. For me, this narrative seems to be very typical of o…
You won't find them because these aren't projects being developed (a) with private capital nor (b) for their economic merits. When a bridge is built in America, someone issues a bond. That issuance--both leading up to it and once in the wild--produces an incentive to do good analysis.
That incentive isn't there with Belt and Road. State-owned banks provide the capital. And the reasoning for the development is strategic, so you get geopolitical and military talking heads instead of good economists, whose services are ironically better allocated to analyzing other projects.
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#139Heh, again China 'collapses', such articles keep coming for ~20 years now, yet it's only getting stronger. If I had to bet my money, I would bet that China will outlast any current major power and USA is in much more dangerous position stabbing long time allies in the backs, isolating itself and monkey for a president.
Re: Soviet Collapse Echoes in China’s Belt and Road
#140Were the West Indies productive before the ports and sugar plantations? Was India productive before its railways were built? Something smells of anti-China propaganda in this highly speculative piece.
India had the world's largest GDP under the Mughals and had continued positive growth, but by the end of the British Raj, was facing stagnant population growth and actually reduced agricultural productivity. So contrary to everything you're saying, India was not only productive before the British, it was actually worsened by Britain's exploitation.