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Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

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Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#32
post #25
post #10

I think this post is skipping the crucial factor in all this. It's not about children--at least not directly. It's about risk. Several years ago I read an article that analyzed the work preferences of the genders. It demonstrably showed that: - Men are more likely to do riskier jobs; - Men are more likely to travel further to work (including internationally); - Women tend to choose that are closer to home. Basically…

BS! The highest risk in the modern world for both men and women is to form a lasting marriage with children! The difference as in other professions is the unfair and unjust burden women face in having a family as Men of the world are not yet up to the task of full sharing of child rearing duties. Has very little to do with the want..cost of the want however different story

Risk aversion makes sense from a biological standpoint, though. Males are expendable, thus must show off to get mating rights (because we don't live in a world where women are won (in most places)).

As to the Modern World, men rarely take maternity leave. That's a long time to be away from a job, a large risk for the company, at a possibly highly inopportune moment. Risk.

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#33
post #10

I think this post is skipping the crucial factor in all this. It's not about children--at least not directly. It's about risk. Several years ago I read an article that analyzed the work preferences of the genders. It demonstrably showed that: - Men are more likely to do riskier jobs; - Men are more likely to travel further to work (including internationally); - Women tend to choose that are closer to home. Basically…

Yes, women are more risk averse... but why is that? Is it possible it cycles back to the same instinctual genealogical pulls to continue the bloodline?

An evolutionary argument could be made that it's because a man that does extremely risky things (like, say, sleeping with every woman that he is able to) can spread his genes far and wide as a reward for such behavior (he'll have a lot of children). Whereas a woman engaging in the same behaviors can only be have one child every nine months, and for most of human history, every pregnancy carried with it a high risk of death, so there was a pretty hard limit to the "payoff" for such risk-seeking in women.

Put another way: as far as natural selection goes, women undergo a selection process that, depending on their fitness (and chance, of course), replaces them with maybe 0-6 copies of their genes; men, on the other hand, can be replaced with many more (even if, on average, they are not, the distribution is much wider), and those that hit the "jackpot" will tend to very quickly spread their genes throughout the pool.

The extent to which this actually happened is unclear; I don't know off the top of my head if there are good ways to investigate the landscape of possible fitness outcomes based on only the genome, but if this did happen to any significant degree we'd likely find that wild genetic variations stabilize more quickly on the Y chromosome than on the X (we'd also find that wild variations elsewhere, good and bad, tend to spawn more often from males rather than females, but I'm reasonably sure there's no way to see that without a full DNA history because any genetic material not on the Y chromosome ends up in females as well as males).

I'm currently very interested in this because I think it might be a useful approach in genetic algorithms to cut a balance between the two common strategies for selection - the male replacement strategy (weighted by fitness) is very useful for spreading good characteristics quickly through a population, but the female one (flat selection via a fitness cutoff) is good at preventing one particular trait from forcing fixation of all the genetic cruft that happens to sit beside it.

For instance, imagine that we're evolving zubbins, and each one has two traits, color and size. It turns out that the optimal zubbin for this environment is red and tiny, where "red" is extremely important, and "tiny" less so. If we started out with a population mixed between tiny green zubbins and large red zubbins, a fitness-weighted reproduction strategy would cause the large red zubbins to very quickly overtake the entire population, and we'd lose the "tiny" trait altogether, and the only way it could be recreated would be by mutation (which is a relatively weak evolutionary force, typically). On the other hand, if half the population was selected by a cutoff, there are more "spots" available for less fit zubbins, some of which will be tiny, so eventually we'll see some tiny red zubbins, which is what we're after, and these will still reach fixation quickly enough because of the massive benefit that the male offspring will have.

If only the male reproductive strategy was in play, the crappy "large" trait hitchhikes along with the useful "red" one, destroying the "tiny" trait altogether; conversely, if only the female strategy was happening, fixation would take much longer.

What I'm not sure about, though, is whether there's any real benefit to separating the two strategies (i.e. creating both male and female classes) rather than coming up with one method that cuts a good balance between them (offering a slight extra benefit to highly fit creatures, but just setting a cutoff at some point). There are a lot of other reasons that sexual reproduction is evolutionarily useful in the real world, and many of those don't carry over to code.

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#34
post #4

As a woman (and someone who is friends with the Brazen peeps) this is highly insulting. It assumes that all women want to have children, that men are mostly absent/dismissive in their children's lives (if they have them), and insinuates that women just aren't biologically fit to run a company. I know Penelope has kind of made a name for herself in saying things that shock people, so I wouldn't doubt that this is in t…

It assumes that all women want to have children Headlines omit qualifiers. If you read the headline as " Fewer women than men want to run startups because many of them would rather have children", I think it's entirely accurate. Sure, there are women who don't want children, just like there are men who want nothing more than to be stay-at-home dads -- but they're the exception, not the rule.

> Headlines omit qualifiers.

It wasn't just the headline. Example: "even the most child-oriented men are not as child-oriented as their wives." This line isn't merely lacking in qualifiers, it explicitly denies exceptions, saying that even outliers fit the stereotype.

(I happen to be one of the exceptions.)

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#35
From the headline, I was hoping this involved some research, some sort of new finding, at least with tentative causality ("because" is hard to prove, but there is evidence that is more persuasive and less persuasive). But it's just someone's opinion based on anecdotes.

And it's not really a new one: the "women do more/less of X because they want to have a family" argument is written about all the time. It vies with "inherent biological differences" and "discrimination" for the most-frequently-suggested explanation for gender differences in any field. You can get dozens of entire books on it.

It's also somewhat at odds with the (admittedly spotty) research that's been done in the area. For example, one in-depth series of case studies found that a large proportion of women who opted out of work to raise a family did so largely because they wanted out of the work, rather than because they wanted to raise a family and weren't able to do the work at the same time: quitting to raise a family was the plan B that they turned to when plan A (have a career) turned out to suck for various reasons: http://www.amazon.com/Opting-Out-Women-Really-Careers/dp/052...

On the other hand, it's perfectly fine for people to write personal blog posts about their own experiences. I think I'm mostly objecting to the attempt to generalize it based on one example; a "why I quit my startup to raise a family" post would've been fine.

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#37
Let us say that the writer actually believes that every single assumption (and oh, there's so many you will lose count) in this article is true (they are not) and it is not just flamebait/linkbait (it most certainly is).

Even so, surely she believes in exceptions. Surely, she does not think that every woman in the world is exactly like her? Why the $$$$ would she advise other people who run startups to "stick with..men in their 20s".

What a shameful way to get attention!

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#38

From the headline, I was hoping this involved some research, some sort of new finding, at least with tentative causality ("because" is hard to prove, but there is evidence that is more persuasive and less persuasive). But it's just someone's opinion based on anecdotes. And it's not really a new one: the "women do more/less of X because they want to have a family" argument is written about all the time . It vies with…

Agreed, this is pretty much a shallow version of the same argument that many people have been making for quite some time now. It would also seem to suggest that we should see major shortages of women in other fields that are extremely intense to start out in (medicine and law, for instance), and IIRC the gender ratios there are much more balanced. "Working hard" is not something women tend to be put off by; "building software", on the other hand, is, and I think any helpful suggestion needs to avoid catching the first in the same net as the second.

IMO the main reason this is getting attention is that it's a woman and she's not arguing the "discrimination" line. That's fine and all, but at this point it just seems like fanning the flames rather than adding anything new to the conversation.

Really, most of this whole debate is a polarization issue: the only people that care very much about this are at the fringes, either arguing the "men are pigs" position or getting really pissed off about people arguing the same. I think there's probably a balance between "discrimination" and "inherent biological differences" that conspire to turn women off from programming altogether, but each side is working so hard to shut the other side down completely that we don't see any balanced views coming out of this debate.

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#39
post #8

As a woman (and someone who is friends with the Brazen peeps) this is highly insulting. It assumes that all women want to have children, that men are mostly absent/dismissive in their children's lives (if they have them), and insinuates that women just aren't biologically fit to run a company. I know Penelope has kind of made a name for herself in saying things that shock people, so I wouldn't doubt that this is in t…

Apparently it only took 16 minutes for the take-offense-out-of-context strawman to rear its ugly head. Did you even read beyond the headline? The author doesn't say "all women" to the point that a single counterexample disproves the hypothesis. Not only does the auther qualify statements such as "fewer women" but any such analysis is a statistical study of a group. It says something about a group and similar groups b…

It's a bit like arguing that the research into the ill-health effects of smoking are nonsense because your Uncle Jack smoked 3 packs a day for 80 years and died at age 95 when hit by a bus

Except she does not cite one bit of research to back up her claims.

What do you call research without data? Assumptions.

Re: Women Don't Want To Run Startups Because They'd Rather Have Children

#40
post #4

As a woman (and someone who is friends with the Brazen peeps) this is highly insulting. It assumes that all women want to have children, that men are mostly absent/dismissive in their children's lives (if they have them), and insinuates that women just aren't biologically fit to run a company. I know Penelope has kind of made a name for herself in saying things that shock people, so I wouldn't doubt that this is in t…

It assumes that all women want to have children Headlines omit qualifiers. If you read the headline as " Fewer women than men want to run startups because many of them would rather have children", I think it's entirely accurate. Sure, there are women who don't want children, just like there are men who want nothing more than to be stay-at-home dads -- but they're the exception, not the rule.

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