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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an American and your logic is flawed. Try actually visiting the place and learning about/from the people.

> I’m an American and your logic is flawed. Let me show you why I consider this line genuinely hilarious. In my opinion, an American would not normally make an absolute statement of that kind, they would say " I think your logic is flawed" or at least " let me show why your logic is flawed". An absolute claim of this kind sounds very Russian to my trained ear. > Try actually visiting the place and learning about/from…

This is a technical forum after all. Most devs and engineers ive meant are pretty blunt.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not partaking in evil IS the result. Any further ulitarian calculations are just rationalizations. You cannot predict the ultimate outcome of any course of action fully, but you can treat others like you want to be treated. If you wouldn't others to look the other way if you got disappeared, don't look the other way when people get disappeared. Period. Not because of how it affects world history, but because of how i…

If we completely drop the utilitarian approach, then we must admit our goal is not to help or improve, but to act morally superior. Righteous grandstanding on the world stage has a track record of failure to inspire change, or even causing conflict. If our goal is simply to keep our hands clean then perhaps we shouldn't take an interest in human rights or business. You cannot personify nations for many reasons, the f…

To keep your hands clean you also need to look outwards.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m an American and your logic is flawed. Let me show you why I consider this line genuinely hilarious. In my opinion, an American would not normally make an absolute statement of that kind, they would say " I think your logic is flawed" or at least " let me show why your logic is flawed". An absolute claim of this kind sounds very Russian to my trained ear. > Try actually visiting the place and learning about/from…

This is a technical forum after all. Most devs and engineers ive meant are pretty blunt.

While I agree that an engineer is less likely to spend effort on politeness, they are more likely to substantiate their claims. sologub did neither in their comment.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#164
post #45

At the risk of sounding nationalistic, I think companies in the United States and other democratic countries should reconsider any and all business relationships with authoritarian regimes like those in China and Russia. And I say regimes because most "companies" in these countries are really just instruments of the state. There may be money to be made, but not only are companies like Google tightening these authorit…

Can’t speak for China, but in Russia the greatest level of popular political activity in recent times was during the peak of the economic prosperity for the average Russian - circa 2012-2013. People were actually driving around Moscow with stickers and banners calling the main political party out for corruption and theft of state property/funds. Then came the sanctions and 50% plunge in value of the currency. Incomes…

Russian here (also have taken part in protests 2012-2013). I believe isolating just one factor for the correlation might give deceiving results. It is true that protest movement has been much less active since 2014, it is also true that Russian economy is in crisis since 2014, but I don't think that the latter was the reason for the former.

Rather

1) As protests of 2012-2013 have failed despite the largest headcount in modern Russian history, people feel demoralized. That works pretty universally the same, (see international Occupy movement for instance).

2) The occupation of Crimea and Donbass region in 2014 made a split in Russian society deeper. Protests of 2012-2013 tried to unite liberal democrats, nationalists and communists, and most of the latter two support Russian aggression. So no union is possible any more.

3) Finally a lot of politically active people have left the country around 2014 (again because of demoralizing effect of both failed protests and successful occupation of Ukrainian territories).

So my opinion on the original topic is that it's worth limiting any collaboration with authoritarian regimes. Such regimes more often crash because of inability to solve their problems than because of successful protest movements, so it's better to increase probablility of the first scenario.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#165
post #124
post #98

For once, I am on Google's side with this one. Somewhat of a discourse. In the last years, "China and Russia" became a new racist norm against anything and everything there. My mom and dad are absolutely against totalitarianism, but their "cardinal sin" is that they were born in Russia and they lack the financial means to move to another country. For years, they can't even buy any good cheese because the cheese was "…

Did they vote for their dictator over last 18 years, alongside with 72% of other supporters? Do they approve extermination of ukrainians by russian armed forces? Do they approve annexation of neighbor territories? In 2008? in 2014? It is not "racist" if the majority of population supports unethical things.

Dear Ukrainian friend, I assure you the majority of the Russian population does not support it at all, but they are powerless to change it (hence the "totalitarian" sticker on the regime). I don't have that many Russian friends left, perhaps under a hundred including my family. Not a single one of them approves of this stupidity. We all voted against the dictator, but everybody understands that the voting was just a theater. A few more years, and there is some hope (unlike China where Mr. Xi is going to stay for good). The quicker all sides deal with this active state brainwashing, the better place the world will be.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#166
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/world/asia/china-xinjiang... "U.N. Panel Confronts China Over Reports That It Holds a Million Uighurs in Camps" Twenty seconds on a search engine...

I don't think you understand what constitutes "evidence." A NY Times article that doesn't contain a single verifiable fact or even a first hand witness account is not evidence, by any actual reasonable basis, that a million people have been disappeared.

Okay, spend FORTY seconds on a search engine.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's nationalistic, I think it's a war of fundamental values. The Chinese Communists put control above truth. The Western World puts truth above control. The most powerful law of the most powerful Western nation enshrines as it's First Amendment the unlawfulness of force restraining speech. For the sake of further discussion, let me set aside the moral argument, and pretend that stable human civilizatio…

> The Western World puts truth above control. you can’t be serious about this. when has the truth mattered in the u.s. in recent times? in the u.s., companies control the government and people. in china, the government controls the companies and people. there really isn't much difference.

> you can’t be serious about this.

Of course I am. It's fundamental.

> when has the truth mattered in the u.s. in recent times?

To whom?

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. In the West you can drink as much as you want freely, under the CCP even attempting to drink the wrong water will get you locked up or worse.

That's a huge difference. It's a matter of fundamental values, and beliefs about the very nature of what it is to be human, and how to live our lives together in stability and happiness.

> in the u.s., companies control the government and people.

The rich write the laws in the U.S.A., this is evident if you study the behavior and history of Congress. From the POV of realpolitik the essential control feature differentiating the Old Totalist from the Modern Western regimes is the axis of denial and permission. In the old imperial system you did what you were supposed to and didn't do anything else, everything was restricted and you needed the Emperor's permission wipe your nose. In the New World you can do whatever the hell you want but if you go off the rails you get jerked back.

The Western system allows for faster evolution. Time will tell whether that leads to thousands of years of stability. We know that the Totalist system always collapses and then has to be rebuilt after a period of chaos and anarchy. Literally dozens of kingdoms and empires have arisen and then fallen across the whole of Asia for thousands of years.

The Western permissive system is a new thing under the Sun.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a dog on a leash isn't controlled by its owner, it's just submissive to him? Riiiiiight. If Baidu was really doing anything independent, then it would get reined in, like the overseas Chinese real estate firms are. As for censorship: "According to the China Digital Times, Baidu has a long history of being the most active and restrictive online censor in the search arena. Documents leaked in April 2009 from an em…

I don't think you really get how Chinese businesses operate. Tech businesses, as long as they are Chinese, operate under an assumption of semi-impunity as long as they don't cross political boundaries. So healthcare fraud is in bounds, and if they get caught, they'll just get a slap on the wrist. Its not like the government condones the fraud, more like they don't care as long as it doesn't result in social instabili…

> Tech businesses, as long as they are Chinese, operate under an assumption of semi-impunity as long as they don't cross political boundaries. So healthcare fraud is in bounds, and if they get caught, they'll just get a slap on the wrist.

Wait. So are you arguing that Chinese tech businesses are under state control, or that they aren't? Your examples point to a horrible compromise: political censorship with freedom to defraud the public.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an American and your logic is flawed. Try actually visiting the place and learning about/from the people.

> I’m an American and your logic is flawed. Let me show you why I consider this line genuinely hilarious. In my opinion, an American would not normally make an absolute statement of that kind, they would say " I think your logic is flawed" or at least " let me show why your logic is flawed". An absolute claim of this kind sounds very Russian to my trained ear. > Try actually visiting the place and learning about/from…

Great, now we are determining the merit of a statement based on grammar and choice of words... (Written on a phone, so your mileage may vary)

If you are in LA (Los Angeles) it’s easy enough to look me up.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#170
post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

> It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. It seems unfortunate to you, because you are not aware of the thought and research that went into this insight, and the roughly 100 million dead people.

We've banned this account for continuing to use HN primarily for ideological warfare despite many requests to stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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