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From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

nytimes.com

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Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#31

Post by Waterluvian »

buth_lika wrote: post #4
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #2

We are about a year away from the first child born after September 11, 2001 being deployed to Afghanistan. The first child born after the second Gulf War began will be deployed to Iraq shortly after the next Presidential inauguration. We are also less than three years away from the war in Afghanistan becoming longer than the Vietnam War.

Bush and Cheney promised war that would not end in our lifetime, or our children's lifetime, and I and many others took that to mean it's intended to be eternal. With varying intensity, but no moment of no war or potential external threat. Bush also said we're either cool with that, or we're with the terrorists. So while 1984 will not be built in one day, but it was pretty much completely outlined in one day, and we'…

I think it's worth framing it as the possible decline of the U.S. The whole world does not share the Americans' fate.

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#32

Post by qntty »

uptownfunk wrote: post #9

This man is a hero. Not only because he served his country so honorably, but for the time, care, and consideration he took to codify his values and morals in his diary. This one hit me hard, especially now that I have a son. To think, there are so many children out there who will never see or get to meet their fathers again. I know it's not the same as a father, but I hope these kids find mentors or guides to try and…

Joining the military doesn't make you a hero

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#33

Post by richardhod »

buth_lika wrote: post #4
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #2

We are about a year away from the first child born after September 11, 2001 being deployed to Afghanistan. The first child born after the second Gulf War began will be deployed to Iraq shortly after the next Presidential inauguration. We are also less than three years away from the war in Afghanistan becoming longer than the Vietnam War.

Bush and Cheney promised war that would not end in our lifetime, or our children's lifetime, and I and many others took that to mean it's intended to be eternal. With varying intensity, but no moment of no war or potential external threat. Bush also said we're either cool with that, or we're with the terrorists. So while 1984 will not be built in one day, but it was pretty much completely outlined in one day, and we'…

from 1984:

'Winston could not definitely remember a time when his country had not been at war, but it was evident that there had been a fairly long interval of peace during his childhood, because one of his early memories was of an air raid, which appeared to take everyone by surprise. Perhaps it was the time when the atomic bomb had fallen on Colchester. He did not remember the raid itself […]. '

'Since about that time, war had been literally continuous, though strictly speaking it had not always been the same war. For several months during his childhood there had been confused street fighting in London itself, some of which he remembered vividly. But to trace out the history of the whole period, to say who was fighting whom at any given moment, would have been utterly impossible, since no written record, and no spoken word, ever made mention of any other alignment than the existing one. At this moment, for example, in 1984 (if it was 1984), Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge, which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.'

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#34

Post by richardhod »

bovermyer wrote: post #29
seventhtiger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has not been invaded. The closest you get is 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. Their cultural memory does not respect the horrors of a foreign invasion. The only people who experience war are young men who go halfway across the world then come back hailed as heroes. Their old WW2 veterans still haven't experienced their hometown being firebombed to ash and dust. In most of the world you can point to the rubble a city wa…

America has been invaded, actually. First in 1812, by the British. There were two more invasions by foreign armies in 1915 and 1916, but I'm not sure they count, since they weren't sovereign powers and were quickly dealt with. But you're right, there is no living American who remembers an invasion of our territory.

Context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#35

Post by monkeynotes »

uptownfunk wrote: post #9

This man is a hero. Not only because he served his country so honorably, but for the time, care, and consideration he took to codify his values and morals in his diary. This one hit me hard, especially now that I have a son. To think, there are so many children out there who will never see or get to meet their fathers again. I know it's not the same as a father, but I hope these kids find mentors or guides to try and…

Without judgment of this particular loving human; Why is it considered heroic to go to war without questioning the men sending you there? The war in Iraq was pointless and based on dubious logic which turned out to be a lie. Men considering going to another country far away to kill other men should think deeply about dedicating their bodies and family's futures to the fortunes of cowards.

I obviously do not know this man's mind, but it is just so painful to read about such pointless waste and consider it as heroic. He was brave, courageous, loving, compassionate, but ultimately his death was a huge pointless tragedy in yet another war fought for assholes.

Show me more heroes who stand up against this nonsense. Heroes who save lives by objecting to taking them. That's where our mindset needs to be to stop the horrors we constantly project to far shores to prop up our corrupt insidious military industry and line the pockets of dire schmucks.

RIP, sorry for hijacking a sad story to vent.

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#36

Post by Cthulhu_ »

uptownfunk wrote: post #9

This man is a hero. Not only because he served his country so honorably, but for the time, care, and consideration he took to codify his values and morals in his diary. This one hit me hard, especially now that I have a son. To think, there are so many children out there who will never see or get to meet their fathers again. I know it's not the same as a father, but I hope these kids find mentors or guides to try and…

I think it wasn't so much serving his country that made him go back and volunteering tbh; nobody should be going to Iraq or even joining the military for that, given how the US has no business in those countries. I do think he's a hero for looking after his other soldiers though, for helping those that took the propaganda and nationalist bait and joined the military - perhaps also because they had no other (career) opportunities.

The military does something weird to people.

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#37

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bovermyer wrote: post #29
seventhtiger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has not been invaded. The closest you get is 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. Their cultural memory does not respect the horrors of a foreign invasion. The only people who experience war are young men who go halfway across the world then come back hailed as heroes. Their old WW2 veterans still haven't experienced their hometown being firebombed to ash and dust. In most of the world you can point to the rubble a city wa…

America has been invaded, actually. First in 1812, by the British. There were two more invasions by foreign armies in 1915 and 1916, but I'm not sure they count, since they weren't sovereign powers and were quickly dealt with. But you're right, there is no living American who remembers an invasion of our territory.

And earlier in the late 1400's by Columbus, the Spanish, the British, etc.

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#38

Post by wavefunction »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #2

We are about a year away from the first child born after September 11, 2001 being deployed to Afghanistan. The first child born after the second Gulf War began will be deployed to Iraq shortly after the next Presidential inauguration. We are also less than three years away from the war in Afghanistan becoming longer than the Vietnam War.

You can enlist at 17 and US Army BCT is only 8 weeks long so we may just be a few months from that mark.

The only way I can reconcile the ongoing nightmare of The War on Terror is that most civilians in USA don't even think about it and there's so much money being made by the MIC.

Re: From Father to Son, Last Words to Live by (2007)

#39

Post by monkeynotes »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #36
uptownfunk wrote: post #9

This man is a hero. Not only because he served his country so honorably, but for the time, care, and consideration he took to codify his values and morals in his diary. This one hit me hard, especially now that I have a son. To think, there are so many children out there who will never see or get to meet their fathers again. I know it's not the same as a father, but I hope these kids find mentors or guides to try and…

I think it wasn't so much serving his country that made him go back and volunteering tbh; nobody should be going to Iraq or even joining the military for that, given how the US has no business in those countries. I do think he's a hero for looking after his other soldiers though, for helping those that took the propaganda and nationalist bait and joined the military - perhaps also because they had no other (career) o…

The military very much conditions minds into believing the bullshit that is 'glory for your country'. It is just as much bullshit as religious crap like 'glory for Allah' and we need to point this out when we see it.

Dedicating yourself to fight for your country is just as fucked up as fighting for your god. Both ideals are a sham propagated by people who sit comfortably and take much relish in the ego boost that is commanding cannon fodder. Make no mistake, many of these people are legitimate borderline psychopaths who want nothing more than their name in history books.

The same people legislate for the sake of getting their names on a successful bill. They care not for anyone but their crony group and themselves. They bray in parliament like demented asses, and bark and howl in Congress like the pack of wolves they pretend to protect you and I from.

The whole show is a shameful fraud, and it's shame on us for not identifying the lot of them for who they clearly are. We are all heading toward calamity once again, lead by the same psychopathy that has polluted the human condition for thousands and thousands of years. We can all see it coming day by day and yet we think the water isn't yet hot enough to do something about it before we become soup.

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