Live data from Hacker News

What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

theferrett.livejournal.com

151–153 of 153 posts

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but the judgment call about whether a fire can safely be fought would rest with the experts - firefighters. If I own a very poorly maintained property but my $75, they may be obliged to turn up but I can't force the firefighters to enter an obvious firetrap just because I have a receipt for my payment. They'll do the best they can under the circumstances. The payment or non-payment of a premium tells you noth…

Actually, the ultimate judge of the actions would be a court not the firefighters. The insurance company would have a good case that the firefighter was hurt trying to protect a non-client and isn't responsible to pay-out insurance on the firefighter's injuries. As you say, if lives where at risk (not in this situation) and the charter and insurance policies noted the exception, then the insurance company would be on…

OK, but when you're considering whether and how to fight a fire in a burning building there's no court to make the decision for you; and even afterwards, all the expert witnesses are going to be firefighters talking about the particular risks presented by the particular structure.

If the insurance policy draws a distinction between whether or not lives at risk when a non-subscriber's call is answered, then the insurance company may have a case as you describe. But your comment seems to assume this is the norm, whereas the questionnaires I've looked at don't make that distinction.

Remember such insurance policies (issued to a FD) are upon life and limb, rather than on department revenue stability. An insurance company would challenge a payout if they felt the fire department (perhaps because of bad training or staffing policy) foolishly ordered a crew into an impossibly dangerous situation resulting in injury or death, even if the property owner was a paying subscriber. In reality, fire crews sometimes have to let a property burn and just try to stop the fire spreading, because the presence of chemicals or an unsafe building structure makes it too risky to enter.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#152
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "not allowing someone to pay". It's "not providing service to someone out of a hurried promise of later payment". What restaurant will kindly let you pay them next Tuesday for a hamburger today? And sadly, no - if you're a homeless person and walk into most hospitals with cancer, you'll get some painkillers if you need them (before being sent on your way), not a walk to the oncology ward.

Any restaurant that takes credit cards.

No, the credit-card company pays them within roughly a day, after giving more immediate confirmation whether the payment will go through.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#153
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since all comments were about the same, I'm just gonna answer yours: To be fair, compared to you guys I'm a total European Douchebag Socialist. I get that. So my childish instinct says, the moral thing in this case would be to just bill the family a few thousand $. But I guess that approach lacks the appropriate toughness. It's probably a cultural thing.

No, I don't think you are wrong on the just bill the family. If there were some framework in the law to do it, I would be all for that, but there really isn't. Plus, you have the additional problem of liability for both injury and damage. It isn't a matter of toughness. I grew up in North Dakota and you help your neighbor. The problem is your neighbor didn't help you to begin with and there is no way that the "Good S…

The legal framework in this case would be a conversation along the lines:

FF: "Hello there, seems your house is a bit on fire sir."

HO: "Indeed, it would appear so. Would you be a good sport and point your enormous hose into my burning pile of rubble for a while, my dear lad?"

FF: "Of course, no problem. I do, however, see that you didn't pay into our 'unfortunate happenstance insurance', which means you'll have to pay our regular fees. That'll be a fantastilllion dollars and the blood of your firstborn please."

HO: "Here you go."

I grew up in Germany, which is without a doubt the most unhelpful and mean-spirited country in the whole world, and even they would not hesitate to help someone in need. The whole point of the "Good Samaritan" thing is that you don't do it for something in exchange, by the way. But in this case that doesn't even apply. The fire department would of course get something in exchange if they billed for their time and materials.

It should not matter how "evil" the family with the burning house is. It's simply morally wrong to not help them. This whole procedure highlights how deeply immoral some parts of society still are, especially in cases like this where it is apparently still seen as acceptable behavior.

By the way, not even in the dark ages, when there was no such thing as a professional fire brigade, ordinary people performed those duties without question for any member of the community. And those were the days when women were cattle and the church owned everything, mind you. But even they knew how absurd it was to only help some people in emergencies while leaving others with a self-righteous lie such as "there is nothing I can do, you deserve this".

Post reply on HN