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Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

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Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#31

Post by inferiorhuman »

rmason wrote: post #2

It seems in tech just when the incumbents seem like they will lose to the upstart they achieve a breakthrough and the inevitable is delayed for a few more years. Combine this breakthrough with what Michigan State is doing in gas powered engines and battery powered cars dominance is delayed for at least another decade. http://www.wkar.org/post/reworking-michigan-msu-develops-lig...

Well this quote from the original article struck me as odd:

> Nobody's ever done variable valve timing on the exhausts, so the benefits are less well understood.

BMW's been doing this for twenty years. Honda's been at it for over thirty years. On. The. Exhaust. Valves.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#32

Post by inferiorhuman »

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #3

I thought koenigsegg was already doing this with their freevalve thing Also I saw an interesting point in an article about the koenigsegg thing that would pertain to this too; environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce with this as you could run virtually any engine anemic enough to get though the emissions tests (and set it as the default mode to get around the Volkswagen nonsense) and then offer…

> environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce with this as you could run virtually any engine anemic enough to get though the emissions tests

lol

Changing a cam (or cams) in most engines isn't all that difficult. Even without a camshaft you'll still be heavily limited by the shape and size of the combustion chamber and the geometry of the valves. You simply won't be neutering the engine that much.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#33

Post by inferiorhuman »

yontherubicon wrote: post #21
thinkingkong wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldnt the test just need to apply to all modes? If its a matter of automatically tuning through a series of conditions then its reasonable that those could be documented and tested by the facility / standards body.

Sure, but emissions testing after you've got the car would be utterly useless.

How so? Roadside emissions testing is very much a thing, as are annual emissions checks.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#34

Post by tibbon »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #23
tomatotomato37 wrote: post #3

I thought koenigsegg was already doing this with their freevalve thing Also I saw an interesting point in an article about the koenigsegg thing that would pertain to this too; environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce with this as you could run virtually any engine anemic enough to get though the emissions tests (and set it as the default mode to get around the Volkswagen nonsense) and then offer…

> environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce ... and then offer high/sport/cruise modes that runs the engine at full capacity otherwise Only if your company is ready to willfully break the law. The vehicle ought to, at the time of testing, meet or exceed all relevant standards, and not have a user accessible option to circumvent the standards.

Well there’s a car hacking then for a future Defcon tuning panel then... because if I buy it, I want to be able to hack and modify it in any way I want. As long as I’m not violating emissions, then it should be within the law

Thankfully, automakers have quite and uphill battle to actually make something secure and inaccessible, so I feel confident a solution would be found :)

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#35

Post by nounaut »

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #3

I thought koenigsegg was already doing this with their freevalve thing Also I saw an interesting point in an article about the koenigsegg thing that would pertain to this too; environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce with this as you could run virtually any engine anemic enough to get though the emissions tests (and set it as the default mode to get around the Volkswagen nonsense) and then offer…

For those of you interested in seeing some more details on Koenigsegg's work with their freevalve engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0 (2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510 (2016)

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#36

Post by londons_explore »

thinkingkong wrote: post #6
tomatotomato37 wrote: post #3

I thought koenigsegg was already doing this with their freevalve thing Also I saw an interesting point in an article about the koenigsegg thing that would pertain to this too; environmental laws would be much harder to practically enforce with this as you could run virtually any engine anemic enough to get though the emissions tests (and set it as the default mode to get around the Volkswagen nonsense) and then offer…

Wouldnt the test just need to apply to all modes? If its a matter of automatically tuning through a series of conditions then its reasonable that those could be documented and tested by the facility / standards body.

Efficiency testing of appliances (eg. Dishwashers) only tests the default mode.

That's why all dishwashers have a mode which takes 4 hours and does a lousy job. It's the mode that only uses 3 drips of water and a sip of electricity.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#37

Post by londons_explore »

yontherubicon wrote: post #21
thinkingkong wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldnt the test just need to apply to all modes? If its a matter of automatically tuning through a series of conditions then its reasonable that those could be documented and tested by the facility / standards body.

Sure, but emissions testing after you've got the car would be utterly useless.

The solution to this is to mandate that the car have built in emissions modelling.

The car itself must keep track of how much Nox it has produced and how many miles it's driven. The ratio must stay below some legal limit (or you pay an extra pollution tax to go over it)

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#38

Post by londons_explore »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #16
mkstowegnv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inherently self destructive nature of ICE's make it likely that ICE vehicles will always be more complex, less reliable/ higher maintenance than comparable all electric vehicles. The simplicity advantage of electric will soon take a quantum leap when driveshaft-free 4 motor all wheel drive vehicles hit the market [1]. On the other hand as long as batteries are heavy, ICE's will have a place in aircraft, and I wou…

>when driveshaft-free 4 motor all wheel drive vehicles Two words: unsprung weight. CV shafts are gong nowhere for the foreseeable future.

Powerful electric motors are getting much much lighter.

Especially with liquid cooling, you could get a 100hp peak (20 hp continuous) motor inside 30 lbs if that was a design goal.

Motors for cars will get lighter as price competition pushes for designs involving less mass of raw materials.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#39

Post by londons_explore »

King-Aaron wrote: post #27
Fjolsvith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this idea is just in time for the all-electric revolution.

The "all-electric' revolution you've got in mind is likely much further away than you expect. There will be a market for internal combustion engines for many more decades before all-electric vehicles can replace the markets in areas that are more remote, or require long hauling vehicles etc.

Yes, but like the hard drive market, as soon as a replacement technology comes over the horizon, all investment in improvements to the existing tech pretty much stops.

Re: Fully digital valves open up engine possibilities

#40

Post by Animats »

The idea has been around for a long time. Most of the big auto companies have played around with it. There are at least four startups in this space. The big problem is a good actuator, not compute power. Here's an actuator demo from 2014.[1] It can be made to work, but so far, it's not cost-effective. Maybe this time.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYEjAv0hFug

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