Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa • Hacker News Board

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#41

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #16

perl4ever wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a "spy" has a child in Canada who would not be a citizen but for where they are born, that implies the parent cannot be guilty of treason against Canada as they are not Canadian. Also, as a counterpoint, applying penalties for crimes to the descendants of an offender has become unfashionable in some circles. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder "The United States Constitution prohibits corruption of blood…

Revoking citizenship is not a penalty. Most countries do not grant jus soli rights, and several grant it only with significant restrictions. This is not a universal human right. Canada has a right to set restrictions on jus soli rights. Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. Spies are working for a foreign government, just not declaring it. The defense in th…

> Revoking citizenship is not a penalty.

Yes, it obviously is.

> Canada already does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada.

Essentially no country recognizing jus soli does that for essentially the same reason that diplomatic immunity exists (and affecting the exact same set of people subject to diplomatic immunity)—the presence of diplomats in a country is a convenience for both the sending and receiving country, which, in the interest of relations between the two countries, died not have the legal effect that that presence would otherwise have for the individuals. Non-diplomats who are employed by a foreign government within a country are but tested the same way.

> It's not clear that simply not declaring your employer makes you immune from the law

Declaration isn't the point. Non-citizens openly working for a foreign country in non-diplomatic roles aren't covered either. The diplomat's unique status as, essentially, a mutually-recognized extension of the foreign state is the point.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#42

Post by dang » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 8:50 AM UTC

hartator wrote: post #2

Canada wants to be one of the most progressive country in the world, making fun of us in the US, while denying basic soil rights. /irony

All of you who perpetuated this hellish flamewar need to re-read the guidelines and go to bed without supper. Commenting like that will get you banned on Hacker News. Please don't do it again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#43

Post by kazinator » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

DKnoll wrote: post #37

kazinator wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never heard of this problem with immigrants coming to Canada just to give their children Canadian citizenship before, I'd love to see some documentation. A good start might be to search "CBC birth tourism". (The CBC isn't some right-wing mouthpiece, but it has reported on the issue. Usually using the perspective like that something is going on that some conservatives (i.e. no, not us) would like to end.) Birth…

Kavinator said: >It's vicious and despicable; like an insect injecting its eggs into a host. The fact that you would refer to another human being looking for a better future for their child (and their child alone) as an insect is a validation of my assumptions about your character after seeing your first comment. I have no further comments.

First of all, many of these people are already quite wealthy and are just speculating how to preserve and increase their capital. For instance, a kid with a Canadian citizenship, when old enough, can be put on a land title and then it's not "foreign owned" any more; that child never has to even set foot in Canada after being born there and returning home. It's an obvious loophole to bypass taxes that discourage speculation that harms the housing market for locals.

Secondly, simply looking for a "better future" for your child doesn't make anyone a saint and it certainly isn't an end which justifies all means. For example, if the future of your child is currently "fair to not bad" (let alone "half decent to pretty good") it is not justifiable to do anything whatsoever for their betterment, like perpetrate crime.

"Anything for my child" is not even remotely close to an irreproachable moral principle.

In history, people have committed atrocities for the sake of furthering their own kind which is basically for their children.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#44

Post by kazinator » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

akudha wrote: post #32

rgbrenner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the governments argument. Canada does not grant citizenship to children born to foreign diplomats working in Canada. The argument is that since spies are working for a foreign government, their children also do not qualify for citizenship. That's a very clear, easy to understand rule. It makes perfect sense. The only question is if a rule that applies to foreign diplomats can also apply to spies.

Lets say a child born to spies grows up for 20 years in Canada, as a Canadian and has nothing to do with his/her parents spying activities. If suddenly one day they lose their citizenship, what are they supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? Canada is the only homeland they've known. How does them getting punished for their parents' sins makes any sense?

> Where are they supposed to go?

One idea: to report themselves to the appropriate intelligence bureau of their home country with documents about their parentage. They can get their appropriate citizenship there and then apply for permanent residency in Canada.

A special immigration class could be created for their particular circumstance (they are not "skilled worker" or "family class" or any of that sort of thing), but in other regards they have to join the same immigration queue as everyone else.

Of course, if they have any serious criminal record or anything in Canada, they can forget about it.

Re: Children born to spies in Canada should not be handed citizenship, says Ottawa

#45

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Aug 12, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

bmcusick wrote: post #38

What is a spy? They're not a legal immigrant, because they lied on their immigration papers, making their immigration invalid. If they're an illegal immigrant, their children would be granted citizenship. If they're a diplomat, their children would not be granted citizenship. The child of the Russian Ambassador does not become a Canadian citizen even if born and raised in Toronto. I think the government's argument th…

A spy is usually defined as any agent of a foreign state that was not registered, that is the difference between a spy and a diplomat.

That’s what often they get you on rather than espionage which is harder to prove.