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Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

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Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that you aren't the original commenter, but that you're not making the same argument. I'm interested in an answer to the question I actually asked.

My answer is in the linked video, and doesn’t fit into a sound bite. If I understand your question, you are asking for evidence that corporations get away with things that normal citizens wouldn’t. The answer is that history provides ample evidence to back up this claim, and my link is one such piece of evidence.

No, you don't understand my question. My question is: is there some legal basis for the idea that a corporation serves as a liability "buffer" for the actions of its employees?

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#122
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that whole "buffer" argument? Can you back it up with sources? I'm not sure that's correct.

I have to think they're referring to the corporate veil.

That refers to civil liability --- in fact, mostly to contract liability, since tort claims sort of automatically "pierce".

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#123
post #39

Whether the guilty verdict is ultimately upheld will probably be decided in a higher court. But this company sure has a dubious track record with previous hazardous substances that were in their product line: > The company once manufactured controversial products such as the insecticide DDT, PCBs, Agent Orange and recombinant bovine growth hormone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto

I don't understand how come those Germans bought this garbage for billions. worst deal ever!

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#124
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people running Monsanto are buffered - if not always protected entirely - by numerous laws from facing the consequences of their actions, precisely because they take those actions in the context of a corporate entity. If I poison my neighbour and I'm caught, I'm going to jail. (In the US I may face the death penalty.) If I'm working inside a corporate and my decisions poison [unknown power of ten] people and caus…

Are you sure about that whole "buffer" argument? Can you back it up with sources? I'm not sure that's correct.

For starters, there are a number of recent Supreme Court decisions (interpreting the Federal Arbitration Act) that allow ToS to prevent consumers from suing as a class [1, 2], thereby ensuring disparate legal resources in favor of a corporation.

Generally speaking, the difficulty in bringing criminal cases against employees of corporations is convincing a court to pierce the corporate veil.

Unfortunately, this presents a catch-22. In order to prosecute an individual for corporate actions, one typically needs to prove the individual engaged in fraud or knowingly illegal actions (circumstances that justify piercing). However, if proved, one is unable to also sue the corporation (as you just argued the individual was acting against corporate interests and/or without corporate knowledge).

Furthermore, and I hope a lawyer corrects me if I'm wrong, criminal law requires much more stringent tests to prove guilty intent. In nebulous corporate power structures (and employing very expensive lawyers to design systems to shield themselves from exposing this proof), this is usually impossible.

E.g. criminal prosecutions over the housing crisis

[1] AT&T Mobility LLC v. Concepcion (2011), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc...

[2] American Express v. Italian Colors (2013), http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/06/details-american-express-v...

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#125
post #41

They are running a big campaign in favour of glyphosate in Reddit. in Argentina at least. Subreddit admins have cobtacted Reddit to suspend the campaign because of false claims going against the rules. The campaign also tricks people because they post links to popular media sites. There is more information about this (in Spanish) here: https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/95m863/followup_...

Earlier today I searched Google for "RoundUp alternatives Reddit" and found a bunch of comments saying it wasn't that bad. Stuff like "It causes cancer in the same way red meat causes cancer" or "Alternatives are probably worse they just haven't been studied as extensively because of their popularity".

Are those statements wrong?

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#126
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presecution claims it's not the active ingredient but the whole herbicide that's cancer causing. I think the studies are only on one of the ingredients, not on the whole herbicide? Also, questions of exposure are not addressed here. This person was drenched in it couple of times by accident. If I use rat poison for my job vs have it rubbed or consumed in different doses, results can be quite different. Monsanto c…

> The presecution claims it's not the active ingredient but the whole herbicide that's cancer causing. I think the studies are only on one of the ingredients, not on the whole herbicide? Yes, the claim neatly was crafted to render all the systematically gathered evidence only tangentially relevant, so what you are left is a lay jury deciding what they feel is more probable (the civil standard being a mere preponderan…

What is better for society: a warning that says something is toxic, or pretending that a poison is perfectly harmless?

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#128
post #44

My mom is another one of these stories. I wish I was exaggerating. I bet there's still Round-up in the her garage. I've spent the last 4 years or my life have been devoted to working so I can afford her treatments and keep her around and happy. Does anyone have any environmental attorneys they've worked with in the past they can recommend?

Sorry to hear! I hope you find a mean ass attorney who bites the shit out of Monsanto.

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#129
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been running a campaign on reddit for years. They've even had a subreddit where they coordinated, though I can't recall the name. They scan every subreddit for posts about Monsanto, glyphosate, or GMOs, and attack anyone who posts negatively about them. It was always the same people. Edit: found the subreddit, though it doesn't appear to be as active as it used to be: https://www.reddit.com/r/GMOFacts/

That subreddit appears to be about genetically modified organisms, not glyphosate or other chemicals.

Glyphosate and GMOs are very intertwined. Just look at the second story on that subreddit. Monsanto sells GMO modified organisms that are glyphosate resistant.

Re: Monsanto ordered to pay $289M damages in Roundup cancer trial

#130
post #124
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that whole "buffer" argument? Can you back it up with sources? I'm not sure that's correct.

For starters, there are a number of recent Supreme Court decisions (interpreting the Federal Arbitration Act) that allow ToS to prevent consumers from suing as a class [1, 2], thereby ensuring disparate legal resources in favor of a corporation. Generally speaking, the difficulty in bringing criminal cases against employees of corporations is convincing a court to pierce the corporate veil. Unfortunately, this presen…

I'm not sure I find this argument credible, since "piercing the corporate veil" is mostly a civil law concept; as I understand it, the model "veil" case is one in which Joe performs some service for BobCo, which promptly goes out of business upon receiving Joe's invoice. Joe would like to sue Bob, but his contract is with BobCo. There are instances where Joe can in fact sue Bob; those are the typical "veil" cases.

There is, as I understand it (as a company operator, not a lawyer, which I am not, though I have talked to them about this because I worry about getting sued) no "corporate veil" for torts. If Joe undertakes a service for BobCo, and Bob knowingly pays Joe in counterfeit dollars, Joe can sue Bob for fraud. If Joe performs that service competently and Bob defames him, maybe by claiming Joe stole all the company pencils and post-its, Joe can sue Bob for defamation. Joe might also be able to sue BobCo, but that's no consolation for Bob.

Given all this: I am having a hard time getting my head around how limited liability shields agents of a corporation from criminal charges.

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