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Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#31

Post by WalterSear »

buth_lika wrote: post #28
darkerside wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you mean by societal dysfunction? Or is it like pornography: you know it when you see it.

Maybe something like this? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/2014... > in shame-based cultures, public humiliation, scorn, or censure are relied upon more heavily to keep individuals in obedience whereas the western notion of guilt and corrective behaviors comes from an individual’s development of an internal conscience.

Sure.

Or Midwestern culture's mix of religosity, conformist individualism and confirmation bias, and the resultant suicide and opioid addiction epidemic.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#32

Post by WalterSear »

dorchadas wrote: post #23
lostmsu wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychology has a poor track of reproducibility, so it is not good at understanding yet.

Not to mention that results can also vary depending on, you guessed it, culture.

Cultural psychology is the field that investigates this. By investigating phenomenon in multiple cultures, you get a better idea of what the actual phenomenon you are investigating is, and what is a byproduct of culture. It's not a perfect, obviously, since we are all as much a product of our culture as anything else.

In any case, just because we the tools we have are still in their infancy, that doesn't somehow implies that A) they are utterly useless for anything at all, or B) that every culture everywhere is a perfect realization of a human conception of life, each one exactly equal of any other and none of them at all with any growing up to do.

It's just silly all around.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#33

Post by JadeNB »

Sangermaine wrote: post #17
WalterSear wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. Genital mutilation is mentally unhealthy. And yet, many of the people who suffered it insist it's 'their culture' and perform it on their offspring: FGM is a tradition which is passed down and performed by women with FGM. You may want to argue that that is an extreme example, but there's no big line…

>No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.” I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question. What is “dysfunctional”? That’s largely culturally determined, because what’s “functional” is relative to the environmental you’re in. You seem to conflating morality or human ri…

> > No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction.

> “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.”

> I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question.

I think your response also begs the question, assuming an empiricism that should at least be argued. That is, it seems to me that you conflate a non-definition ("there is an absolute notion of dysfunction, although I don't know how to define it") with a circular definition ("dysfunction is the state of being dysfunctional"). These may be equally useful in the present, but the first, which seems to me to be what WalterSear is saying, can be imagined as a spur to useful future discussion (either arguing that there is no such absolute notion, or seeking out the correct absolute notion); whereas the latter is clearly useless and is, I think, an incorrect summary of WalterSear's position.

(Can you really pin down any concept—like morality or human rights, which you mention later—to the degree of specificity that you are requiring of the definition of 'dysfunction'? I know I can't.)

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#34

Post by buth_lika »

WalterSear wrote: post #31
buth_lika wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe something like this? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/2014... > in shame-based cultures, public humiliation, scorn, or censure are relied upon more heavily to keep individuals in obedience whereas the western notion of guilt and corrective behaviors comes from an individual’s development of an internal conscience.

Sure. Or Midwestern culture's mix of religosity, conformist individualism and confirmation bias, and the resultant suicide and opioid addiction epidemic.

I'd like to see the studies about "conformist individualism and confirmation bias". Surely that wasn'n just a kneejerk "I know you are, but what am I" reaction.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#35

Post by WalterSear »

buth_lika wrote: post #34
WalterSear wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Or Midwestern culture's mix of religosity, conformist individualism and confirmation bias, and the resultant suicide and opioid addiction epidemic.

I'd like to see the studies about "conformist individualism and confirmation bias". Surely that wasn'n just a kneejerk "I know you are, but what am I" reaction.

I'm neither from the midwest, or a shame-based culture, though, I have immediate in-law family from both, and relatives I visit, obviously.

Check the NIH for studies, though the bulk of the literature is behind the academic paywall.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#36

Post by WalterSear »

JadeNB wrote: post #33
Sangermaine wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.” I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question. What is “dysfunctional”? That’s largely culturally determined, because what’s “functional” is relative to the environmental you’re in. You seem to conflating morality or human ri…

> > No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. > “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.” > I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question. I think your response also begs the question, assuming an empiricism that should at least be argued. That is, it seems to me that you conflate a non-definition ("there is…

> "there is an absolute notion of dysfunction, although I don't know how to define it"

Don't put words in my mouth and expect me to debate you.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#37

Post by dorchadas »

foundart wrote: post #6

This seems like useful background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

Seriously. The whole article seemed pretty much predicated on the strong form of it being true. When, really, it's just plain false (and the weak form is susceptible, in my opinion, as well).

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#38

Post by WalterSear »

JadeNB wrote: post #33
Sangermaine wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.” I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question. What is “dysfunctional”? That’s largely culturally determined, because what’s “functional” is relative to the environmental you’re in. You seem to conflating morality or human ri…

> > No it doesn't: it depends on whether it's dysfunctional or not. Even if the people involved don't see the dysfunction. > “It’s dysfunctional because it’s dysfunctional.” > I hope I don’t have to explain why this is, again, begging the question. I think your response also begs the question, assuming an empiricism that should at least be argued. That is, it seems to me that you conflate a non-definition ("there is…

Mea culpa, I mistook your complex discussion for another round of reactive meandering.

Re: Unknown Unknowns: The Problem of Hypocognition

#39

Post by dang »

Sangermaine wrote: post #24
WalterSear wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing we have a thoroughly cross-cultural construct for developing an understanding of exactly that: clinical psychology. So, yes, we do know what dysfunction looks like, to an extent.

Your response demonstrates your ignorance of psychology if you’re not even aware of how results often vary across cultures. One area to start educating yourself in is looking into the discussion in the last decade or so of how psychological research has been skewed by over-reliance on “WEIRD” (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Democratic) test subjects, and that studies with subjects from places without these attrib…

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