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How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

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Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#81

Post by TheCoelacanth »

leereeves wrote: post #77
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you were to define nationalism solely based foreign-born population, the least nationalistic country would obviously be Vatican City with 100% foreign born or UAE with 84% if you want to exclude extreme outliers. The US isn't even particularly high at 14% of the population being foreign born. And of course, restrictions on freedom of movement can't be summed up exclusively with number of immigrants. There are…

I think you know I was only offering foreign born population as an example of the US's freedom of movement, not as the definition of nationalism. If you're intentionally misinterpreting me, this discussion isn't going anywhere. But in the hope that that's not the case, I'll try again: What country offers freedom of movement to the most people? The US, by far.

Nonsense, you are completely ignoring country size, and even in absolute numbers every country in the Schengen Area allows every citizen of other Schengen Area countries complete freedom of movement. For any given country in the Schengen Area, that is more foreigners who are allowed complete freedom of movement than the entire population of the US, much less just the foreign born population of the US. Just because most of those people don't choose to exercise that ability, doesn't mean they don't have it.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#82

Post by Gibbon1 »

jaggederest wrote: post #78
Gibbon1 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a CO2 tax should be applied to capital equipment at the time of sale for best effect.

That creates some disincentives towards efficiency, and operation of equipment is often a much larger carbon source than initial manufacture. I think in practice it would work like a VAT, which is well understood and creates a reasonably level playing field.

What I mean is instead of slapping a carbon tax on gasoline you slap it on the car. So if a car is slated to emit 60 tons of CO2 during it's expected life you compute a excise tax based on 60 tons.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#83

Post by leereeves »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #81
leereeves wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you know I was only offering foreign born population as an example of the US's freedom of movement, not as the definition of nationalism. If you're intentionally misinterpreting me, this discussion isn't going anywhere. But in the hope that that's not the case, I'll try again: What country offers freedom of movement to the most people? The US, by far.

Nonsense, you are completely ignoring country size, and even in absolute numbers every country in the Schengen Area allows every citizen of other Schengen Area countries complete freedom of movement. For any given country in the Schengen Area, that is more foreigners who are allowed complete freedom of movement than the entire population of the US, much less just the foreign born population of the US. Just because mo…

The Schengen area is more like the US itself. A federal system of once independent states uniting to eventually form a single nation.

The freedom to move from France to Germany, or from California to New York, has nothing to do with the freedom of movement of people born outside those systems.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#84

Post by leereeves »

shanghaiaway wrote: post #80
leereeves wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you know I was only offering foreign born population as an example of the US's freedom of movement, not as the definition of nationalism. If you're intentionally misinterpreting me, this discussion isn't going anywhere. But in the hope that that's not the case, I'll try again: What country offers freedom of movement to the most people? The US, by far.

China offers far more freedom of movement. US is at the bottom. By far.

China doesn't even offer freedom of movement to its own citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#85

Post by TheCoelacanth »

leereeves wrote: post #83
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense, you are completely ignoring country size, and even in absolute numbers every country in the Schengen Area allows every citizen of other Schengen Area countries complete freedom of movement. For any given country in the Schengen Area, that is more foreigners who are allowed complete freedom of movement than the entire population of the US, much less just the foreign born population of the US. Just because mo…

The Schengen area is more like the US itself. A federal system of once independent states uniting to eventually form a single nation. The freedom to move from France to Germany, or from California to New York, has nothing to do with the freedom of movement of people born outside those systems.

LOL, you are basically saying that by entering into an agreement like the Schengen Agreement and becoming less like nations, the overall group becomes more nationalistic. That seems like absurd circular reasoning.

The constituent countries in the EU are still sovereign countries. Unlike US states, they are free to leave at any time.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#86

Post by leereeves »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #85
leereeves wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Schengen area is more like the US itself. A federal system of once independent states uniting to eventually form a single nation. The freedom to move from France to Germany, or from California to New York, has nothing to do with the freedom of movement of people born outside those systems.

LOL, you are basically saying that by entering into an agreement like the Schengen Agreement and becoming less like nations, the overall group becomes more nationalistic. That seems like absurd circular reasoning. The constituent countries in the EU are still sovereign countries. Unlike US states, they are free to leave at any time.

By your definition of nationalism, Europe is simply replacing French/German/etc nationalism with EU nationalism.

The EU already has a parliament, "federal" laws, and a single currency. They're building an EU army and discussing federal taxes. At what point do you call them a nation?

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#87

Post by TheCoelacanth »

leereeves wrote: post #86
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, you are basically saying that by entering into an agreement like the Schengen Agreement and becoming less like nations, the overall group becomes more nationalistic. That seems like absurd circular reasoning. The constituent countries in the EU are still sovereign countries. Unlike US states, they are free to leave at any time.

By your definition of nationalism, Europe is simply replacing French/German/etc nationalism with EU nationalism. The EU already has a parliament, "federal" laws, and a single currency. They're building an EU army and discussing federal taxes. At what point do you call them a nation?

You are engaging in absurd double-think. Loosening restrictions on movement is not tightening restrictions on movement no matter how many mental hoops you try to jump through.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#88

Post by afterburner »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #65
afterburner wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon taxes change the profit math for companies, which affects their decisions, that's the biggest change. They have to be high enough to change the decision though.

> They have to be high enough to change the decision though. This is why I've stopped listening to people attempting to make externality-based policy arguments. If you believe that a carbon tax needs to be high enough to change companies' decisions, you're not actually making an externality argument. You've already decided that the world should change, and how it should change, and you're just trying to find some mag…

Are you saying the jury is somehow out on greenhouse gases? Because we definitely know it's affecting the planet. And we definitely know we need to cut back on carbon emissions. And we even know by how much. The externality is not hypothetical, we're living it, in real time, and so have a pretty damn good idea what we have to do to bring things to neutral.

Anyone claiming otherwise simply would rather not lose their profits, or is being payed/brainwashed by those people.

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#89

Post by jaggederest »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #82
jaggederest wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That creates some disincentives towards efficiency, and operation of equipment is often a much larger carbon source than initial manufacture. I think in practice it would work like a VAT, which is well understood and creates a reasonably level playing field.

What I mean is instead of slapping a carbon tax on gasoline you slap it on the car. So if a car is slated to emit 60 tons of CO2 during it's expected life you compute a excise tax based on 60 tons.

Right, but that's too broad. Some people will drive a car for a million miles, some people will drive it for ten thousand. It's better to tax the embodied carbon of manufacture and delivery of the car separately from the carbon emitted by the fuel, for example. Fuels, in particular, are easy to determine the carbon weight - just add it up!

Re: How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility

#90

Post by 77777777 »

drb91 wrote: post #46
sremani wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not that Socialism & Democracy as a combination was not tried. The Pre-1991 India is a good example, it also had War on Poverty and whole enchilada. Nothing did more to get millions of people out of abject poverty than 1991 economic liberalization.

There are many socialist concepts you might implement. If you consider nationalized healthcare, then the vast majority of all western countries are socialist democracies. This is why it's weird to hear people bring up gulags in the US--most "democratic socialists" are just trying to catch up to europe.

> are just trying to catch up to europe.

Implying Europe is somehow "ahead." (They aren't.)

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