Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study • Hacker News Board

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#31

Post by itschekkers » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

Kyrztyn wrote: post #28

itschekkers wrote: post #22

Original Article author here - happy to help with any questions people have. Also sorry about the paywall - you can get the article either through sci-hub here http://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/S2215-0366(18)30227-X or you can email me and i'll send you a copy direct!

Awesome. Question: Why are you wasting your time? Do you wish to apply a blanket cure for the unknown multitude causes of mental health issues? Why do you think reductions in the self reported “mental health” of the general population is useful for people who have been hospitalized with mood disorders? Don’t you think that people who lie about how much exercise they do also might be lieing to themselves about their m…

1- surely we're allowed to waste our own time if we like!

2- nope, and actually my entire research agenda has been around helping people find a treatment that is most likely to work for them specifically! (we also founded a company to bring the research to market- springhealth.com)

3- that is beyond the scope of the paper, and we didnt use the word hospitalized once

4- yep, and thats a good example of one of the pitfalls of self-reported surveys. in general, i am a bit less cynical and in our experience, most people aren't filling out surveys to intentionally lie or sabotage.

hope this helps!

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#32

Post by Kyrztyn » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

markroseman wrote: post #27

Kyrztyn wrote: post #24

This study was flawed from the start. They asked people if they were ever “diagnosed” with depression when there is no clear cause of depression. Depression can be lifelong, short term situational, caused by drugs, etc. It also relied on self reported physical activity! Ha! It is worthless to extract anything regarding mental heath and exercise from this study.

I'd consider the value to be motivational ammunition for an intervention that generally has few downsides and multiple possible benefits for the person affected. Your point about stigma does counterbalance that somewhat. In other words, would I put the overview on the coffee table in my wife's office (she's a psychiatrist) for her patients to see? Yes.

They did not establish causality in the study, yet you would put it out for sick people already stigmatized and thinking they are “lazy”, “just need to get out of bed”, etc as another burden for them to carry?

Are you a sadist?

Let me give you a personal anecdote. I suffered depression and anxiety and fatigue for years. I tried to be active but it made me feel worse. Turns out I had late onset partial biotinidase deficiency. I take biotin, my depression and anxiety are gone and now I can work out like a normal person.

What good does this study do for people like me and the probably hundreds of thousands of people like me? I would in fact it harms people like me because it lays a simple cure over a complex and diverse issue.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#33

Post by themodelplumber » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #29

themodelplumber wrote: post #19

I personally find that exercise only contributes to good mental health outcomes when it is part of a system that monitors and directly, daily, addresses issues of physical exhaustion. Experiencing exhaustion and a desire to push through it was my personal #1 link to depression and anxiety. I found that just laying in bed and relaxing has a much higher likelihood of vanquishing my depression and anxiety than exercise…

For the exercise itself I find that it's not the exhaustion, but the mental effort it takes to really push hard sort of resets my mental processes - I train powerlifting, so those 30 seconds where I'm going "this bar is going to kill me if I don't keep going" really changes my mental affect once I get out from under the bar.

Yes, what I'm describing would be like powerlifting on a couple hours of sleep, daily. That kind of emotional / depressive outcome, where one has not attended to their exhaustion level and jumps in to perform, as opposed to powerlifting under more typical or optimal circumstances which I'm sure has some really positive mental outcomes.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#34

Post by nbsd4life » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #11

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #2

This is sure to quickly fill with personal anecdotes, I can attest to experiencing this phenomena myself, but I wonder what we can do with this information? I think it's already in the "everybody knows" category, so how do we get those who need it the most to take advantage of it? The extreme presentation of these conditions typically impedes one from becoming physically active, thought I do look forward to the succe…

I think most people associate "physical exercise" with having to spend an hour at the gym or something similar. What they should be thinking is: going for a walk around the block, not getting the car for close by errands, not taking the elevator, going for a bike ride, etc

I've enjoyed cleaning chores a lot more after mentally declaring them to be exercise.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#35

Post by chris_wot » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

a_wild_dandan wrote: post #30

raverbashing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people associate "physical exercise" with having to spend an hour at the gym or something similar. What they should be thinking is: going for a walk around the block, not getting the car for close by errands, not taking the elevator, going for a bike ride, etc

This is such an important distinction to actually effect change. The vast majority of folks who go from 0 to Gym Rat will quickly peter out, reverting to sedentariness. Small lifestyle changes are far more effective. Likewise for diets. Those who spend their New Years resolution momentum eating baked chicken and broccoli for a week or completely cutting out carbs will shortly find themselves failing completely and bi…

I have to agree. I’ve been able to keep my gym attendance regular by starting pretty slow and gradually building up to more intense workouts.

I honestly have done this for the endorphine boost, but overall I’ve lost just under 11kg in about 10 months and I’ve really started to notice my belly go down, and I can actually see muscle building now... which I’ll be honest and say surprised me (why I have no idea). This is great, but I did exercise to deal with some pretty appalling trauma I experienced - everything else is nice but for me, not essential.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#36

Post by Kyrztyn » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

itschekkers wrote: post #31

Kyrztyn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome. Question: Why are you wasting your time? Do you wish to apply a blanket cure for the unknown multitude causes of mental health issues? Why do you think reductions in the self reported “mental health” of the general population is useful for people who have been hospitalized with mood disorders? Don’t you think that people who lie about how much exercise they do also might be lieing to themselves about their m…

1- surely we're allowed to waste our own time if we like! 2- nope, and actually my entire research agenda has been around helping people find a treatment that is most likely to work for them specifically! (we also founded a company to bring the research to market- springhealth.com) 3- that is beyond the scope of the paper, and we didnt use the word hospitalized once 4- yep, and thats a good example of one of the pitf…

#2, of course. Capitalism.

You want to bring the research to market, not help the mentally ill. You goal is profit.

For the 20 I have been “cared for” by people like you it took my own ingenuity and relentless pressure on a psychiatric system that thinks there is never a nutritional cause to mood disorders to have them test me for a biotinidase deficiency which turned up positive. My mood issues were cured by 15 grams of biotin a day.

Researched and doctors like you were so certain what caused my depression and anxiety you filled me with pills that rarely worked and diabled me with side effects. It took 15 years to even test me for a B12 or iron deficiency.

So sorry, but your study does not help the mentally ill. Maybe it helps people who are stressed from the everclenching fist of capitalism, but that’s about it.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#37

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #4

This was a cross-sectional study. Here's an opposing result for anxiety and depression: > Testing Causality in the Association Between Regular Exercise and Symptoms of Anxiety and Depression > Context: In the population at large, regular exercise is associated with reduced anxious and depressive symptoms. Results of experimental studies in clinical populations suggest a causal effect of exercise on anxiety and depres…

[deleted]

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#38

Post by Broken_Hippo » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #11

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #2

This is sure to quickly fill with personal anecdotes, I can attest to experiencing this phenomena myself, but I wonder what we can do with this information? I think it's already in the "everybody knows" category, so how do we get those who need it the most to take advantage of it? The extreme presentation of these conditions typically impedes one from becoming physically active, thought I do look forward to the succe…

I think most people associate "physical exercise" with having to spend an hour at the gym or something similar. What they should be thinking is: going for a walk around the block, not getting the car for close by errands, not taking the elevator, going for a bike ride, etc

See, this is some of my own problem. I personally despise going for a walk for the sake of going for a walk. The same for a bike ride. The only times I've enjoyed such things is when part of my unhappiness was at home and it was one of the few escapes available. I don't find these fun at all. Doing actual exercise sounds dreadful and embarrassing. Not to mention that finding basic gear is expensive and hard to find (I'm just talking about a sports bra here - unfortunately, if you are thin with breasts, these get incredibly hard to find and expensive and often must be mail-ordered, which makes them risky).

Yet I'll walk to anywhere within a half an hour's walk. I'll do that daily. Grocery store? walk. I'll go longer at times. I'll take the stairs. I'll go out hiking and walking to see something or do something.

Unfortunately, if I have nothing to see or do - no work or lack the means to do something - I rarely do these things. These have generally been the times when my mental health is worst as well (though that trend has changed the last few years). It makes me despise these sorts of reports.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#39

Post by rrggrr » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:53 PM UTC

itschekkers wrote: post #31

Kyrztyn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome. Question: Why are you wasting your time? Do you wish to apply a blanket cure for the unknown multitude causes of mental health issues? Why do you think reductions in the self reported “mental health” of the general population is useful for people who have been hospitalized with mood disorders? Don’t you think that people who lie about how much exercise they do also might be lieing to themselves about their m…

1- surely we're allowed to waste our own time if we like! 2- nope, and actually my entire research agenda has been around helping people find a treatment that is most likely to work for them specifically! (we also founded a company to bring the research to market- springhealth.com) 3- that is beyond the scope of the paper, and we didnt use the word hospitalized once 4- yep, and thats a good example of one of the pitf…

You didn't deserve that response. Good job on the paper and keep up the good work. Your findings are supported by other research as you already know.

Re: Association between physical exercise and mental health: a cross-sectional study

#40

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #35

a_wild_dandan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an important distinction to actually effect change. The vast majority of folks who go from 0 to Gym Rat will quickly peter out, reverting to sedentariness. Small lifestyle changes are far more effective. Likewise for diets. Those who spend their New Years resolution momentum eating baked chicken and broccoli for a week or completely cutting out carbs will shortly find themselves failing completely and bi…

I have to agree. I’ve been able to keep my gym attendance regular by starting pretty slow and gradually building up to more intense workouts. I honestly have done this for the endorphine boost, but overall I’ve lost just under 11kg in about 10 months and I’ve really started to notice my belly go down, and I can actually see muscle building now... which I’ll be honest and say surprised me (why I have no idea). This is…

> I’ve been able to keep my gym attendance regular by starting pretty slow and gradually building up to more intense workouts.

People start way too intense, spending hours in the gym, and burn out all their enthusiasm in the first weeks or two before they realize that their efforts are unsustainable. Really, start with a plan on what do to, go in and do it. If it's a half hour that's perfectly fine. My sessions, depending on the day, last anywhere from half an hour to 3 based upon my mood and the workload for that particular session - but you gotta keep the mandatory work to a reasonable amount - everything else should be treated as icing on the fitness cake.

I'm sure to go with the 11 kg there has been significant body composition changes to make it count for more as well.