Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

thehill.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

471–480 of 565 posts

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#471

Post by api »

jackvalentine wrote: post #386
api wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you could show me enough inane neo-Nazi videos to make me a Nazi. Insane, ready to gouge my eyes out with an egg beater... maybe... but conversion is not likely.

This seems to be a common enough retort in this thread, but it's really just a single person's opinion about themselves that doesn't mean much. You think you're not susceptible, good for you! The topic of radicalising people via mainstream social media to become nazis or fight for ISIS or whatever gross extremism they're susceptible to has been around for years now and it's pretty much settled that yes, you can radic…

The question not being asked is: what makes people susceptible to radicalization?

I think it's telling that America's potential for radicalization might be comparable to that of a former war zone like Iraq. We are not a healthy society. De-platforming will not make us a healthier one.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#472

Post by maeln »

guessthejuice wrote: post #430
Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

> A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. Also, so that good ideas can have their day in the sun. Lets not forget that most "good" ideas were once considered bad ideas. List of ideas that was once considered bad. Abolitionism. LGBT rights. Heliocentrism. Germ theory. Endless list. The idea is that all ideas deserve discussion so that the good rise…

There is a big difference between ideas like LGBT/PoC/Women rights, abolitionism, ... and White Supremacy, Racism, Religious Fundamentalism, ... : One advocates for inclusion, social peace and acceptance, the other for exclusion, hate and race/religion war.

This is not something we can ignore and treat every ideas like they are the same.

In Europe, it's very common to have an exception to Free Speech when it comes to hate speech, and I never saw it being used in the "wrong" way and keep good idea away.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#473

Post by pohl »

specialist wrote: post #272
mirimir wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Also, you can refute all you want, but if the bad ideas are better clickbait than your refutations, they will spread faster.

A lie is half-way around the world before the truth has its pants on. — Mark Twain Younger me was a free speech ultimatist. Alas, human nature. Propaganda works, so well that people aren’t even aware of changing their minds. Overton windows. Blowback, where refuting further cements the falsehood. Belief as attire. Etc, etc.

Also, the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle, or Brandolini’s Law: The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#474

Post by michaelcampbell »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #300
moomin wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an infinite number of bad ideas in the world. No-one’s life would be improved by hearing them all.

Maybe not. But is one’s life diminished by hearing bad ideas? I don’t think so. For instance, the idea that the Earth is flat is laughable. But my life doesn’t deteriorate nor improve based on that idea. We can all agree it’s a stupid idea, laugh at it, and move on.

Depends on how much your time is worth either refuting, or investigating, any claim which may or may not be bad.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#475

Post by jhayward »

jewelthief91 wrote: post #192
jhayward wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is abstract idealism, uninformed by contact with the real world. Mobs happen. Moral panics happen. People are not at all, not at all, rational beings evaluating the logical correctness of arguments and using critical thinking to vet new ideas. The common spaces have to be policed. People with bad intent have to be dealt with not left for everyone to deal with on their own. It is entirely possible to destabilize…

Experience seems to indicate the opposite I think. The danger of niche mobs and/or terrorism is very real and scary, but losing our freedoms in order to address these perceived dangers is always far worse. For all the fear the "alt-right" has generated, exactly how many people have been come to harm because of them? They probably number in the dozens, which is a terrible tragedy but ultimately is that worth losing ou…

The experience of 1930s Germany and Italy, 1980s Rwanda, Serbia and Srebenincia, and just recently Myanmar apparently don’t register on your scale of “problem”. Why is that? It is a very misguided position to say that can’t happen here. US society has been building toward a populist-led Fascist break, with dehumanizing rhetoric by right-wingers, whipping up fear and hatred, forming armed militias and concentrating supporters in police and military, and now a true fascist as president. Why is it that it won’t happen here?

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#476

Post by michaelcampbell »

carry_bit wrote: post #469
braythwayt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument works well in relatively small social groups where people generally can be relied upon to act in good faith, and where there are social disincentives to clinging to bad ideas after they have been refuted. When you have a small group with social bonds, you don't have to worry about a bad actor constantly repeating their already-refuted arguments to people who haven't heard the refutation. But when you ha…

Is it possible for a bad idea to be true?

I think part of the implicit understanding in this thread is that part of an idea being "bad" is that it is not true.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#477

Post by jackvalentine »

api wrote: post #471
jackvalentine wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a common enough retort in this thread, but it's really just a single person's opinion about themselves that doesn't mean much. You think you're not susceptible, good for you! The topic of radicalising people via mainstream social media to become nazis or fight for ISIS or whatever gross extremism they're susceptible to has been around for years now and it's pretty much settled that yes, you can radic…

The question not being asked is: what makes people susceptible to radicalization? I think it's telling that America's potential for radicalization might be comparable to that of a former war zone like Iraq. We are not a healthy society. De-platforming will not make us a healthier one.

> I think it's telling that America's potential for radicalization might be comparable to that of a former war zone like Iraq.

I was actually referring to the many British & Australian citizens that were radicalized and traveled to Syria to fight for ISIS.

Removing the ability to broadcast these vile ideologies in to mainstream channels will certainly reduce the incidence of those susceptible to radicalization discovering them and being converted.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#478

Post by api »

jackvalentine wrote: post #477
api wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question not being asked is: what makes people susceptible to radicalization? I think it's telling that America's potential for radicalization might be comparable to that of a former war zone like Iraq. We are not a healthy society. De-platforming will not make us a healthier one.

> I think it's telling that America's potential for radicalization might be comparable to that of a former war zone like Iraq. I was actually referring to the many British & Australian citizens that were radicalized and traveled to Syria to fight for ISIS. Removing the ability to broadcast these vile ideologies in to mainstream channels will certainly reduce the incidence of those susceptible to radicalization discov…

Same question applies I think. My post was US-centric but the same issues exist to varying degrees across the developed Western world. Check out the unemployment rates in parts of Europe.

My overall point is that we should be looking inward if vast numbers of people are being radicalized. It means our culture is simply not compelling enough to overcome the allure of these cults.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#479

Post by moduspol »

ubernostrum wrote: post #470
moduspol wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you can selectively interpret net neutrality to justify ISPs arbitrarily blocking access to content is unsurprising, but nonetheless irrelevant.

Unless/until you're a customer of an ISP and hosting something on the connection they provide, there's no content. Now, think through the logical consequences of your argument for a moment, and ask whether you really want to legally require every ISP and every hosting service and every website everywhere to be legally required to accept absolutely anyone, absolutely any behavior and absolutely any content, without ex…

I have no interest in defending your straw man. I didn’t propose legislation, and the idea that net neutrality wasn’t intended to keep ISPs from arbitrarily blocking content is ridiculous.

If it helps, though, my comments are still there unedited. Maybe you’re mixing up my comments with someone else’s.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#480

Post by guessthejuice »

maeln wrote: post #472
guessthejuice wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. Also, so that good ideas can have their day in the sun. Lets not forget that most "good" ideas were once considered bad ideas. List of ideas that was once considered bad. Abolitionism. LGBT rights. Heliocentrism. Germ theory. Endless list. The idea is that all ideas deserve discussion so that the good rise…

There is a big difference between ideas like LGBT/PoC/Women rights, abolitionism, ... and White Supremacy, Racism, Religious Fundamentalism, ... : One advocates for inclusion, social peace and acceptance, the other for exclusion, hate and race/religion war. This is not something we can ignore and treat every ideas like they are the same. In Europe, it's very common to have an exception to Free Speech when it comes to…

> There is a big difference between ideas like LGBT/PoC/Women rights, abolitionism, ... and White Supremacy, Racism, Religious Fundamentalism, ... : One advocates for inclusion, social peace and acceptance, the other for exclusion, hate and race/religion war.

Ideas are ideas. And how do we understand the difference if one is censored? Also, there are plenty of exclusionism and hate in extremist LGBT, feminism, etc communities. It's not fair to compare extremism of one side, but not the extremism of the other side. There are feminists who believe men should be wiped out, there are lesbians who are against trans women and there are trans people who are against gay marriage. But that's not the point. The point is all ideas should be allowed to be expressed so that they can be debated, criticized, etc. It's the american way.

> In Europe, it's very common to have an exception to Free Speech when it comes to hate speech

Yes. That's why europe gave us such "wonderful" things like nazi germany, the soviet union, fascist italy, etc.

Do you know why these existed while US was immune from them? Nazi Germany censored everything they didn't like, soviet union censored everything they didn't like, fascist italy censored everything they didn't like. But we had freedom of speech. It's why the US is the symbol of freedom and not europe in the world.

You do realize that in much of western europe, if you criticize islamic fundamentalism or fundamental judaism, it's considered hate speech and you could go to prison for that right? Hell in some places in the world, criticizing religious fundamentalism is an offense worthy of the death penalty.

You sure you want to censor all hate or offensive speech? Because atheist speech and lgbt speech is the most censored speech in the world. Most of the world finds these type of speech the most hateful and offensive. Are you really advocating that we ban these speech since it offends so many?

How about we stick to principles?

Post reply on HN