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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#411

Post by Install_Gentoo »

WalterBright wrote: post #193
pitaj wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly not a free market economy because almost every electricity utility is a state monopoly.

When markets get "out of whack" it's almost certainly due to government regulation. In this case, it's the government setting fixed electric rates for consumers.

It's always the government and them dang corporate subsidies. Everything would work out fine if every aspect of our lives are dominated by fiefdoms of companies battling out against each other.

On a less sarcastic note, companies/corporations failing to the point where government has to bail them out at all is sign that this system is not working.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#412

Post by eloff »

forkerenok wrote: post #353
fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

this reminded me of underwater energy storage pilot: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/german-institute-suc...

Fascinating. When you pump the water out I wonder what it's replaced with? What holds back to pressure of the ocean at 700 meters depth? The article was very light on details, unfortunately.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#413

Post by eloff »

mywacaday wrote: post #314
eloff wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is the only valid reason I have heard for having smart household appliances.

You made me laugh, but yeah I can't think of another good reason for my refrigerator to be "smart".

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#414

Post by forkerenok »

eloff wrote: post #412
forkerenok wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this reminded me of underwater energy storage pilot: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/german-institute-suc...

Fascinating. When you pump the water out I wonder what it's replaced with? What holds back to pressure of the ocean at 700 meters depth? The article was very light on details, unfortunately.

My understanding is that they do not replace it with anything.

I'd assume the only thing they look at is not to go above the pressure differential that the dome/sphere can sustain.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#415

Post by DoctorOetker »

barking wrote: post #361
fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

The train goes up, the train goes down: a simple new way to store energy https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-storage-rail This sounds good to me and it claims have 86% efficiency.

considering how much trains weigh and how fast they move, perhaps the electrical trains are already being used as "linear flywheels" ?

Since kinetic energy = 1/2 m * v ^ 2 , the a slight change in velocity on the trains that are already moving fast at any point in time, could store a lot of energy (i.e. for 2 identical weight trains, from 0km/s to 1km/s is a smaller change in stored kinetic energy than from 100km/s to 101km/s ! [in fact the latter increase of 1 km/s stores 201 times as much kinetic energy than the former: ((101 * 101) - (100 * 100)) / ((1 * 1) - (0 * 0))]

Now that I think of it, this could probably explain why our local trains are suffering more and more irregular arrival times :) but why would it be kept secret or hidden in plain sight? perhaps all the negative news about negative prices for renewable energy during energy flood is just manufacturing consent to keep price hikes for the plebs palatable, or a kind of white lie to offset their airplane travels...

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#416

Post by DoctorOetker »

barking wrote: post #361
fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

The train goes up, the train goes down: a simple new way to store energy https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-storage-rail This sounds good to me and it claims have 86% efficiency.

to be honest I'm not very impressed by the trains up/down proposal:

The trains move on a track 5.5 miles long at an inclination of 8 degrees. thats a height difference of sin(8deg) * 5.5miles * 1.609344km/mile = 1.232 km, now it may be hard to find a steep cliff 1.2km high, but you could use a smaller cliff and heavier weights, think of the steep section at the start of an amusement ride (they will probably be better equipped with safety for such systems anyway since they are used to designing crazy rides for human consumption). no need for train and electrical tracks 5.5 miles long, since the motor can reside on the top part of the cliff/hill...

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#417

Post by nukemandan »

dgacmu wrote: post #341
nukemandan wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that the alternative at the moments is literally pumping that energy into the ground as waste heat. I think that renewable resources otherwise wasted being used for mining instead of that seems like a win-win.

It takes resources - a lot of them, including energy - to build the miners. It's a net loss if you can't run the miners at a sufficient duty cycle. Cheap mining power is about 4c per kwh. A $350 GPU at 200W (hand-waving) takes about 20c/day to operate. At $70/year of power, and maybe a useful life of 3 years, it's actually capital-dominated.

True- so if you lived in a zone with negative price, then you would throttle your GPUs otherwise and only go full throttle when you literal get paid to use the power. But duty cycle just for that would be low... I would need to look more at the stats. But if full time operation on average over the year was closer to (or less than) $0 for power usage, could you net a profit over the life cycle? I would surely hope so!

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#418

Post by therealdrag0 »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I used to work for Alstom Grid (now GE Grid), and I was kinda abstracted from specific use-cases, but we developed energy markets [0] that I believe are relevant to what you're talking about. Our energy market tools allowed companies to bid for electricity and schedule their work. So if you had an energy hungry rock crusher that can run at any time of day, you could buy or sell energy depending on the supply/demand curves. But apparently not every utility participates in the energy markets.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_transmission_organiza...

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#419

Post by whitej125 »

computerphage wrote: post #265
whitej125 wrote: post #254

Any good book recommendations that could shed light on the mechanics/economics/incentives of the power industry and how it came to be?

The Grid. I heard about it two years ago and recommend it often. https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/The-Grid https://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill-Gates/Best-Books-2016

Awesome, thanks!
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