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A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

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Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#211

Post by donkeyd »

Rjevski wrote: post #101

I used to fix cars for a living. Sometimes it involved “cracking” alarm & immobiliser systems. My clients all claimed they broke/lost their keys to their car - most of the time they were believable (car stuck in front of their driveway, etc). Sometimes less so, but I’d do it anyway because I needed the money and I had no proof of the contrary (innocent until proven guilty right?), although given the sad conditions of…

> unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace

My boss's car was stolen in broad daylight in front of a client's warehouse. This isn't a busy area, but it isn't extremely quiet either. The car had GPS tracking, but it disappeared without a trace.

The police guessed that it was driven into the back of a closed truck and straight away transported to Eastern Europe.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#212

Post by [deleted] »

avar wrote: post #80
rconti wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I'm glad I'm not the only one :) That said, I thought that car theft was all but gone in the US, at least for modern cars, whereas in Europe it still seems common. (Eg, if you follow international forums for newer car models, nobody in the US talks about theft anymore, but our European counterparts talk about these highly complex theft schemes). But then someone was posting about theft in Sacramento,…

There's a huge difference between the US and EU in this regard. If I steal a car in California and try to sell it in Nevada, I can expect to be arrested. If I have a car stolen in The Netherlands and it's being sold in Romania, and I find out who's selling it and where, I'll be told that I have to travel to Romania and file report with the local police there before they'll do anything. The only inter-state enforcemen…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#213

Post by Cthulhu_ »

King-Aaron wrote: post #206
Zhenya wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll go damn far - on a flatbed.

haha! Yeah, but by the time you're involving a flatbed in your thieving, I don't know if any car security is going to be much good :P

I like to think high tech cars can detect when they're being towed and will activate their tracking system and ping the emergency call center.

Of course, all bets are off when it's loaded into an RF shielded truck. It could have an onboard camera to record the number plate of the truck, but that could be shielded.

Long story short, you're probably better off parking it in a firmly locked / secured garage, and have a wheel clamp or chain attached to something solid.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#214

Post by donkeyd »

Johnny555 wrote: post #54
avar wrote: post #27

Reading this article is honestly a bit of a domestic culture shock for me, where does this guy live in The Netherlands? Here in downtown Amsterdam we called the police because the rear window of someone's car had just been smashed outside our office, and the police's response was "Has anyone been hurt? Nope? Then we're not coming". Meanwhile, wherever this guy lives they're sending officers because some BMW call cent…

The message received from the police was: The message they passed on was that there was either a burglary attempt or that my car was involved in an accident. They gave the police the exact coordinates of my car... So I would hope that when presented with an automated report that the car was involved in an accident along with the exact coordinates, that they would come investigate to see if the driver was injured in t…

> So I would hope that when presented with an automated report that the car was involved in an accident along with the exact coordinates, that they would come investigate to see if the driver was injured in the accident and unable to call for help.

Exactly this. Also, I have some family members working for the police in Dutch rural areas, at 3 am they'd happy to head out, because they're usually just waiting for something to happen.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#215

Post by gitgud »

donkeyd wrote: post #211
Rjevski wrote: post #101

I used to fix cars for a living. Sometimes it involved “cracking” alarm & immobiliser systems. My clients all claimed they broke/lost their keys to their car - most of the time they were believable (car stuck in front of their driveway, etc). Sometimes less so, but I’d do it anyway because I needed the money and I had no proof of the contrary (innocent until proven guilty right?), although given the sad conditions of…

> unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace My boss's car was stolen in broad daylight in front of a client's warehouse. This isn't a busy area, but it isn't extremely quiet either. The car had GPS tracking, but it disappeared without a trace. The police guessed that it was driven into the back of a closed truck and straight away transported to Eastern Europe.

Incredible, was there ctv footage?

Reading things like this makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still. Much like the old days when people could exchange fake cheques at banks for cash... Most of the world is still built on trust.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#216

Post by donkeyd »

stingraycharles wrote: post #34
avar wrote: post #27

Reading this article is honestly a bit of a domestic culture shock for me, where does this guy live in The Netherlands? Here in downtown Amsterdam we called the police because the rear window of someone's car had just been smashed outside our office, and the police's response was "Has anyone been hurt? Nope? Then we're not coming". Meanwhile, wherever this guy lives they're sending officers because some BMW call cent…

You sound frustrated, like you think it’s a bad thing that the police has time to respond to these types of incidents. When you’re not in one of the big cities, it is in fact common that police has time for this type of stuff (I live in Zeist myself and could see this type of thing happening here). I think this is rather a signal that the police in Amsterdam is underfunded, and/or the types of crimes they deal with a…

> the types of crimes they deal with are much more severe.

Not just that, because of tourists misbehaving everywhere, there are also just way more crimes/disturbances than in normal city/town.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#217

Post by [deleted] »

avar wrote: post #80
rconti wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I'm glad I'm not the only one :) That said, I thought that car theft was all but gone in the US, at least for modern cars, whereas in Europe it still seems common. (Eg, if you follow international forums for newer car models, nobody in the US talks about theft anymore, but our European counterparts talk about these highly complex theft schemes). But then someone was posting about theft in Sacramento,…

There's a huge difference between the US and EU in this regard. If I steal a car in California and try to sell it in Nevada, I can expect to be arrested. If I have a car stolen in The Netherlands and it's being sold in Romania, and I find out who's selling it and where, I'll be told that I have to travel to Romania and file report with the local police there before they'll do anything. The only inter-state enforcemen…

[deleted]

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#218

Post by donkeyd »

gitgud wrote: post #215
donkeyd wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless it’s been going on for a while but executed perfectly so nobody would find a trace My boss's car was stolen in broad daylight in front of a client's warehouse. This isn't a busy area, but it isn't extremely quiet either. The car had GPS tracking, but it disappeared without a trace. The police guessed that it was driven into the back of a closed truck and straight away transported to Eastern Europe.

Incredible, was there ctv footage? Reading things like this makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still. Much like the old days when people could exchange fake cheques at banks for cash... Most of the world is still built on trust.

I asked about it at a later time, but after a certain time, the car ownership officially gets transferred to the insurance company, so any updates from the police would go to them unfortunately. From what I heard, however, police wasn't planning on spending too much time on this, because these types of cases never really result in much. Unless this becomes part of a major investigation into similar cases, it'll be dead in the water.

> makes me realise how easy it is to steal things still

So yeah, you're right about this. Statistics actually seem to show that low impact, organized crime pays in the Netherlands [1], since police is too busy with high impact cases. High impact often being being defined as burglaries, robberies, rape, etc. that have long-term impact on the victims well-being.

[1](Dutch) https://www.bndestem.nl/overig/cbs-misdaad-loont-in-nederlan...

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#219

Post by hvidgaard »

maym86 wrote: post #33
jasoncartwright wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has happened so many times (I've heard of at least 5) in the UK to Tesla cars that Tesla themselves sent out a warning with instructions on how to turn off the passive entry feature that allows this attack. https://pasteboard.co/HypzOWg.png Here's a video of a relay theft (of a Merc) from West Midlands police in the UK... https://www.west-midlands.police.uk/news/4544/watch-police-r... Photo from a camera of atte…

Maybe you could stop this attack by having an IMU in the key so it only broadcasts the unlock signal while it's being held/moved.

The entire idea of passive keyless entry is that you just have the keyfob in your pocket, and can enter the car as you approach it without touching your keyfob.

That also means that relay attack is always going to work. So either accept the risk or disable the feature.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#220

Post by tpxl »

jinzo wrote: post #194
outworlder wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> program new keys Yeah. We bought an old Elantra which only came with a single key and no FOB. I bought a cheap gizmo on Amazon that you plug to the OBD port and allows you to program other FOBs. Modern-ish cars are computers. Once you have physical access, all bets are off.

On the other side, MY2015 Audi A3 8V needs online access for remote re-sync (sometimes the RF part of the key looses sync with the car). So yes, generally older cars are easy to modify, newer not (at least yet). Also the cheap gismo was cheap because it was a clone, original tools are not that cheap.

You need to connect your car to the internet?
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