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Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

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Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#161

Post by vultour »

nybblesio wrote: post #113

A regular viewer of my daily Twitch programming stream (link is in my profile) asked me to solve a problem he was asked to whiteboard. He wasn't asked to draw diagrams or write pseudo-code so they could learn how well he communicated. He was asked to write the code and it was heavily implied that it must compile and run -- even though whiteboards don't do that. Here's my attempt: https://youtu.be/6LHqrxrC6Uo I solved…

I feel like you're vastly overcomplicating the whole thing. Granted, I don't know if there were any parameters specified other than "Find the largest connected segment in a 2D grid".

I had to solve almost the exact same problem very recently. I find the best way to start is to just implement the easiest solution you can think of, such as the array approach you mentioned in the beginning. I did that in 5 - 10 minutes. We spent the rest of the interview optimizing and fleshing out the problem (e.g. let's not use an array, but there is only one "color").

Overthinking the problem straight from the beginning and potentially being unable to provide a working solution at all is probably the worst thing you can do. I actually had that happen in a previous stage of the aforemention interview, and had to "reset" by going back and implementing the simple solution before optimizing it.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#163

Post by throwawaymath »

timr wrote: post #62
remoteorbust wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whiteboard interviews test one thing well: How well does a candidate code on a whiteboard. What if you consider part of someone's job to be communicating concepts to people, possibly with the help of visual aids and diagrams? I hate this concept that if it's not typing code into an editor then it's not "real work". I absolutely communicate with my coworkers using a whiteboard and pseudocode. I reject the idea that…

It's bizarre to me that you think that whiteboard coding tests "communication", in any way. It's not like a presentation, or anything. It's one-sided combat where someone with a secret tries to get someone who doesn't know the secret to regurgitate the secret, on the spot, while pretending that s/he didn't memorize the secret in advance while cramming a great big "Cracking the Programmer Secret" book to prepare for t…

> I guarantee that 80% of working "rockstar coders" will fail (but not before whining, crankily, about how unfair it is that you would actually make them do such a useless thing, since, y'know...never actually documents anything IRL, dude).

Are you sure you're not just replacing one stereotype with another here? Do you think it's fair to say that 80% of people who do well at whiteboard coding value documenting their software so little that they'd be fail at it while disparaging the concept?

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#165

Post by vultour »

privacypoller wrote: post #57

All of these interviewing "tools" (or tricks) attempt to be time/cost efficient proxies for doing the damn job, and they all suck. * Whiteboard coding is awesome for software development shops that don't actually own computers or use punch cards to load programs. * Shared coding environments with a time limit works well when you want to double screen for someone who can also diffuse suspicious packages that arrive at…

Riddles are the worst, I was recently asked the "You have a 5 litre and a 3 litre container, how do you get 4 litres" question (never heard it before).

It's so simple to figure out if you're on your own and just play around with the idea. When asked on the spot I just kept thinking "hey these people want an answer NOW, don't make them wait" while feeling their stare, and couldn't figure it out without help.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#166

Post by pan69 »

As with everything, it depends.

To me, whiteboard interviewing makes sense when hiring for a role that leans toward a comp-sci background. People who do well in these roles typically have a brain that works in a certain way.

The roles that lean away from a comp-sci background are usually the type of developers who don't do well with whiteboard interviewing techniques.

What too often happens is that a hiring engineer doesn't interview within the context of the role they are hiring for.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#167

Post by jihoon796 »

If you must do whiteboard interviews, here's a technique I've used with great effect:

Have someone else pick a coding problem (that you as the interviewer don't know beforehand), and work on it from scratch together with the candidate.

Being upfront with the candidate that you don't know the answer yourself puts the candidate at ease, and you'll be able to better judge the candidate's soft skills (communication, critical thinking, empathy in case I don't understand the problem).

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#168

Post by WDCDev »

remoteorbust wrote: post #100
KhanMahGretsch wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if you consider part of someone's job to be communicating concepts to people, possibly with the help of visual aids and diagrams? Perhaps it would be more effective to have the candidate whiteboard a concept that they are already familiar with, be it a high-level engineering principle or a system/solution they have built in the past. Attempting to solve a problem you have just been presented with AND communica…

That's an excellent idea. I'm in no way saying the existing method is perfect. Just that some of the things it tests around communication and being put on the spot and analyzing a problem in a way that is understandable to the rest of the room is actually a really good engineering skill. There can be other great ways to measure those skills. I know my opinion is unpopular, but I sometimes do think I've figured out so…

They think it's about gotcha questions and they think they fail because they didn't leetcode hard enough.

But ... if you read some of the feedback from interviewers at "those companies" that rely on these interviews, they say the reason they failed someone is exactly because they "didn't leetcode hard enough". It is manifested as:

"Well other candidates got the same solution as you, they just did it 10 minutes faster"

or

"You missed an edge case, even though your core algorithm was correct".

This is a huge issue with these interviews. It's all too easy for interviewers to evaluate candidates based on how fast, correct, neat or "complete" you answer was. It's easy and takes no time.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#169

Post by vultour »

anonytrary wrote: post #112
dvirsky wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why couldn't he do fizzbuzz?

"Why couldn't he do fizzbuzz with someone else watching his every move while he wrote on a blackboard with no interpreter to test his solution or catch his mistakes?" seems like the better question.

You're assuming quite a lot here. Was he not able to write flawless code without syntax errors, or did he struggle with the core idea of FizzBuzz?

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#170

Post by andrei_says_ »

I’d be curious, are interviewers running whiteboard interviews willing to do one, conducted by a colleague, in front of their team?

Does this practice exist anywhere?

It would be interesting to do this maybe once a year? And put $100-500 toward getting a pass or non-pass(money gets donated to interviewer-selected charity), just to throw in some money in the game?

And I mean an interview based on non-trivial CS problems, not brainstorming / code ideation which we do often.

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