Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

keyvalues.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 370 posts

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#151

Post by techwraith »

loxias wrote: post #148
techwraith wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're less concerned with the resulting code than we are about your ability to explain the code that you wrote and your ability to prove to us that you have good judgement when making technical decisions. Also, we're growing fast enough that we're rarely comparing candidates. If we can hire both the apple and the orange (assuming both candidates are evaluated to be good for the role), we will.

I'm actively looking/interviewing and really like the "cut of your jib". (both your answers here, plenty of aspects of Eaze as a company, the prospect of moving back to SF...) For both the sr backend and devops positions, how important to the roles is familiarity/experience with your technical stack? I might have some of the skill set/experience you're looking for -- sr backend engineer, sr systems engineer, devops a…

We care less about your particular technical skills than we do about your generalized engineering skills. Specific stacks are easy to teach; fundamentals, emotional intelligence, and social skills are harder to teach.

In fact, if someone is too into their stack, we see that as a bad sign.

So I'd be super excited if you decided to apply :)

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#152

Post by mountainofdeath »

balls187 wrote: post #146
LaserToy wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I? There are a lot of great companies, why should I waste time on Google? Working there is not as fancy as you think. >> Everyone is busy, that's a terrible excuse not to brush up on your interview skills. I believe that their approach is arrogant, they just don't value candidates time. I have a confession to make, I spent some time at Google. And after I left I was interviewing people using their approach and I r…

> Do I? There are a lot of great companies, why should I waste time on Google? Working there is not as fancy as you think. I'm definitely confused. You don't want to waste time preparing for an interview, but you will waste time interviewing at a company for a job you don't want? Yes, there are lots of companies hiring. But in my experience, in preparing for one software interview, you're preparing for others as well…

What LaserToy is saying is that it's not just a little preparation; a few hours here and there. There are people who turn it into a literal hobby and do nothing else. If grinding through competitive programming questions is your idea of fun, then do it. Not everyone has interest in spending 2+ hours a day for a month to prepare.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#153

Post by sidlls »

remoteorbust wrote: post #125
timr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bizarre to me that you think that whiteboard coding tests "communication", in any way. It's not like a presentation, or anything. It's one-sided combat where someone with a secret tries to get someone who doesn't know the secret to regurgitate the secret, on the spot, while pretending that s/he didn't memorize the secret in advance while cramming a great big "Cracking the Programmer Secret" book to prepare for t…

> It's bizarre to me that you think that whiteboard coding tests "communication", in any way. It's not like a presentation, or anything. I feel like we're probably at an impasse if I can't convince you that a whiteboard is a decent medium to communicate ideas around datastructures and algorithms, but I appreciate your point of view. I can only say my experience, which I hope you will take into account as one anecdote…

Have you considered that your experience interviewing at these places might have been atypical?

Every set of interview prep material I've seen from Facebook, Amazon and Google recruiters asking me to interview in the last 3 months has included links to things suggesting "cracking the coding interview" is a good start and pointing to similar docs otherwise.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#154

Post by jackcosgrove »

I think an under-tested aspect of software engineering is the ability to research solutions on the internet.

Just give people a search bar and ask them to solve a problem outside their comfort zone. See what terms they use and how quickly they can arrive at a useful link. No pseudo-code or architectural diagrams needed. Just a link with a plausible solution. Because that's how most learning on the job actually happens.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#155

Post by mountainofdeath »

devy wrote: post #9

Serious question, if whiteboard interview aren't the best or helpful at all, what are the successful/useful alternatives for engineering interviews?

We could be like real Engineers (civil, certain classes of mechanical and electrical) and require a license. One 8 hour exam covering fundamentals and application of them along with simple project management and soft skills.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#156

Post by cakes »

pkteison wrote: post #143
Tobani wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do whiteboard problems, BUT we also emphasize beforehand that the interviewers in the room are there to work through the problem with them. This is meant as more of a conversation, we're less concerned about getting to the "right, fastest, or most optimized" answer. Not a hard problem, no mindgames, no syntax rules, and no complicated pre-known algorithm work other than an if and a loop. Let's just talk about some…

Every time an interviewer has told me something like this, they then nitpick syntax and appear to be primarily concerned with "does my whiteboard code compile" sorts of problems. And getting stuck / asking for help feels like I get docked for getting stuck. Same with less optimized. So it's hard to trust such an explanation - clearly my interview would be better if I came up with the perfectly optimized solution, or…

This is generally the same experience I have had. I'll even talk through the assumptions (e.g. "Can we assume I know how to do argument checking?") and then after I've done the heavy-lifting of the problem-solving I'm now discussing how I didn't do something I brought up as an assumption.

Also, generally, if I'm whiteboarding in front of my coworkers/team/etc. I'm discussing something I've thought about for more than the few moments I have to digest the question while standing at the board during an interview.

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#157

Post by loxias »

privacypoller wrote: post #57

All of these interviewing "tools" (or tricks) attempt to be time/cost efficient proxies for doing the damn job, and they all suck. * Whiteboard coding is awesome for software development shops that don't actually own computers or use punch cards to load programs. * Shared coding environments with a time limit works well when you want to double screen for someone who can also diffuse suspicious packages that arrive at…

I agree with much of what you say, heck, nearly all of it -- but it's not reasonable to expect, or even ask for a _very_ short paid project. I see no reason that a possible employer should pay actual money for some useless task.

If it's very short, then almost by definition it's useless.

That being said I've had great results from doing, say, a tiny consulting project, and ending up with full time employment. The best jobs of my life have followed the pattern of "am either offered, or I manage to ask/negotiate for a small consulting project" -> "before the project actually ends, am brought on full time".

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#158

Post by KhanMahGretsch »

remoteorbust wrote: post #100
KhanMahGretsch wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if you consider part of someone's job to be communicating concepts to people, possibly with the help of visual aids and diagrams? Perhaps it would be more effective to have the candidate whiteboard a concept that they are already familiar with, be it a high-level engineering principle or a system/solution they have built in the past. Attempting to solve a problem you have just been presented with AND communica…

That's an excellent idea. I'm in no way saying the existing method is perfect. Just that some of the things it tests around communication and being put on the spot and analyzing a problem in a way that is understandable to the rest of the room is actually a really good engineering skill. There can be other great ways to measure those skills. I know my opinion is unpopular, but I sometimes do think I've figured out so…

Thanks for elaborating so well on your initial premise, I think you bring up some good points about how this kind of interactive problem-solving can be an effective tool available to the interviewer. For better and/or worse, there's a reason why it's so prevalent now and controversial.

I'm inclined to describe it as a sort of interrogation technique, you're offering a stimulus (the problem) and aggregating a number of reactions to form an opinion, and open up new lines of questioning. Very delicate work.

I think problems arise when unskilled interviewers present an excessively obtuse problem to the candidate, then read far too much into their responses (this approach is also easily "hacked" by those who've memorised common problems of this ilk). To stick with my interrogation analogy, it's the equivalent of screaming in the suspect's face, noticing that they gulp before shifting in their seat and scratching their face, then deciding that "they must be lying".

Re: Engineering whiteboard interviews: yay or nay?

#160

Post by balls187 »

mountainofdeath wrote: post #152
balls187 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I? There are a lot of great companies, why should I waste time on Google? Working there is not as fancy as you think. I'm definitely confused. You don't want to waste time preparing for an interview, but you will waste time interviewing at a company for a job you don't want? Yes, there are lots of companies hiring. But in my experience, in preparing for one software interview, you're preparing for others as well…

What LaserToy is saying is that it's not just a little preparation; a few hours here and there. There are people who turn it into a literal hobby and do nothing else. If grinding through competitive programming questions is your idea of fun, then do it. Not everyone has interest in spending 2+ hours a day for a month to prepare.

That point I get, people may not enjoy prepping for an interview.

That's different than asking "Why should I prepare for a job?"

If you want the job, you'll put in the effort to prepare, regardless of your feelings on the process. That sacrifice (2 hours a day for a month) is minor in the grand scheme of things. Granted to the OP's point, Google probably isn't worth it. But that's a value decision each candidate has to make for themselves.

I'm preparing for my brown belt in Krav Maga. The test is 6 1/2 hour grueling physical exam that includes a comprehensive test of all the material from the previous 4 belts. Not only that, we're the first group eligible to test, so the instructor wants to set the standard with us.

Not everyone wants to put themselves through that hell. But those that do will put in the effort to be ready come test time.

Post reply on HN