Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#131

Post by CM30 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

394549 wrote: post #98

CM30 wrote: post #86

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host. The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes…

> The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes, they're the internet equivalent to the electricity company or the water company. They're the internet equivalent to a phone service provider or ISP. Exactly this. When the First Amendment was authored, I don't think it was even conceivab…

When the First Amendment was authored, I suspect people thought public property was going to be where the largest audience was, with the town hall and park and square and what not being the main platform for discussion. Reaching the crowd meant going out with a handbell or standing on a box passing out pamphlets. Stopping the government from arresting someone advertising in the town square was more important than stopping a shop from kicking out a customer they didn't like.

But that's not the case now. The platforms hosting your work are privately owned, the large community websites/social networks/whatever with millions or billions of users are privately owned, and a larger portion of real life locations people frequent are privately owned too.

The way society is going seems to be making the amendment less and less relevant as time goes on.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#132

Post by chaostheory » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

On a more pragmatic note, it's much harder to track these groups as well on the dark web. On the internet, anyone can see their thoughts and it's much easier to track their location as well.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#133

Post by charonn0 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

pandasun wrote: post #87

chvid wrote: post #38

Who are the organisations pushing for these bans? Are they completely anonymous?

It's the same people who are downvoting you, it's anonymous people that can't handle different political views. Yesterday it was Alex Jones, now it's Gab, Voat will be next, then The_Donald etc. Sticks and stones is a foreign concept to people reporting these sites. They want everyone to agree with them. And since most of the major hosting companies have that liberal culture going on, they will happily ban them. Now…

Just to be clear, his "political views" are a call for violence.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#134

Post by BryantD » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #81

BryantD wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That common argument rests on norms established by millennia of relatively difficult communication. Best not to assume that the same people would come to the same conclusions today. For example, QAnon believers have not had their speech restricted. That conspiracy theory is as open as anything you could name. People have challenged it. It's still going. If you believe that challenging terrible ideas makes those who h…

>I am refuting the misconception that shedding light on bad ideas makes them go away. It doesn't make them go away. It allows them to be refuted - which hopefully stems at least some of the indoctrination that would otherwise occur only in private. If everyone I've ever known tells me vaccines are evil and I never am told or shown otherwise - I'll grow up continuing to think vaccines are evil. If you refuse to let me…

> It allows them to be refuted - which hopefully stems at least some of the indoctrination that would otherwise occur only in private.

This does not appear to be the case. Consider the math, if nothing else:

Bad Idea Public convinces .1% of those who hear it and those people are irrationally convinced.

Bad Idea Private convinces 10% of those who hear it and those people are likewise irrationally convinced.

I'm assuming the private bad idea is 100 times as effective, which may or may not be accurate. Even so, as long as your private circles are smaller than ten million people or so, we're better off than we would be if your bad idea was hitting a billion people on the Internet.

I'm still not arguing about the difficulty of telling which ideas are good and which are bad.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#135

Post by moomin » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

It is a common concept, true. It’s also wrong and not supported by any studies. The reason the idea keeps going is that it keeps getting repeated despite being comprehensively debunked, thus serving as its own contradiction.

(Those entertained by intellectual diversions will observe that if you assume that I am incorrect and that in fact the evidence supports OP, you end up with a logically inconsistent position.)

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#136

Post by gsich » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #43

kodablah wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wait to see what will be next on the chopping block. I wish we didn't have to wait. I wish there was a large enough group of people that would boycott companies that make up the internet infrastructure (e.g. ISPs, registrars, DNS, CDNs, cloud providers, etc) for censoring lawful content. I wish we didn't require mass media articles to get groups of consumers to act in a common interest. And I would prefer it was…

There was no government involvement in this. Microsoft made a business decision that hosting Gab would subject them to business pressures from other customers/potential customers not wanting to use a service used by hatemongers. That's not censorship. That's the free market at work. Gab is free to host their own website; and if necessary their own DNS servers. Hell, they're free to go Tor-only.

"business impact" is almost always a lie or used as an excuse to do what you want.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#137

Post by kevinmchugh » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

394549 wrote: post #98

CM30 wrote: post #86

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host. The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes…

> The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes, they're the internet equivalent to the electricity company or the water company. They're the internet equivalent to a phone service provider or ISP. Exactly this. When the First Amendment was authored, I don't think it was even conceivab…

Some of the same people who voted for the First Amendment very shortly thereafter authored the Alien and Sedition Acts.

It was certainly much more expensive to distribute writing in 1800 than it is today. It would be much easier to stop a person from printing.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#138

Post by sctb » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

pandasun wrote: post #87

chvid wrote: post #38

Who are the organisations pushing for these bans? Are they completely anonymous?

It's the same people who are downvoting you, it's anonymous people that can't handle different political views. Yesterday it was Alex Jones, now it's Gab, Voat will be next, then The_Donald etc. Sticks and stones is a foreign concept to people reporting these sites. They want everyone to agree with them. And since most of the major hosting companies have that liberal culture going on, they will happily ban them. Now…

We just asked you to please go read the guidelines and follow them. Could you do that now? We don't need any more flamebait here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#139

Post by moomin » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

tinalumfoil wrote: post #126

braythwayt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument works well in relatively small social groups where people generally can be relied upon to act in good faith, and where there are social disincentives to clinging to bad ideas after they have been refuted. When you have a small group with social bonds, you don't have to worry about a bad actor constantly repeating their already-refuted arguments to people who haven't heard the refutation. But when you ha…

People are better off hearing a bad idea and hearing it refuted then never hearing a bad idea. You could say, "well then detractors of the idea will have to keep refuting it" and you'd be right. That's how public forums work, and I hope you don't take everything your parent's believed for granted just because their detractors have already been "refuted".

There are an infinite number of bad ideas in the world. No-one’s life would be improved by hearing them all.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#140

Post by moduspol » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 10:11 PM UTC

millzlane wrote: post #118

CM30 wrote: post #86

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host. The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes…

Are people still able to download a web server and host their own content? What does anyone need a host for? If a bunch of angry racists want to start their own social network, they could build it, if they really wanted a place to spew their hate. Is anyone really stopping them from connecting to the internet?

Is that the point?

There are a lot of people here completely in support of this, and it's not hard to trace an IP address to an ISP. When brigades start calling for ISPs to stop serving these sites, do you really think that's when they'll stand up for free speech?

Keep in mind in the span of just a few days, we've seen the jump from application platforms (Facebook, Google) to now infrastructure providers. The leap to ISPs is not that far, and something tells me when it happens, supporters will simply move the bar again.