A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#61

Post by city41 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

giobox wrote: post #16

I've anecdotally heard a lot of stories about the relay/replay attacks on keyless ignition systems used in many BMW models and other cars as well. No need to smash the window at all in some cases. Remarkably simple attack in principle, and probably a nightmare to explain to your insurer given there will be no evidence of a break in. Makes you wonder if you should start storing the key in a metal/RF shielded box at ho…

I keep my keys inside of these: https://www.amazon.com/Faraday-Wisdompro-Blocking-Shielding-...

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#62

Post by rconti » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #27

Reading this article is honestly a bit of a domestic culture shock for me, where does this guy live in The Netherlands? Here in downtown Amsterdam we called the police because the rear window of someone's car had just been smashed outside our office, and the police's response was "Has anyone been hurt? Nope? Then we're not coming". Meanwhile, wherever this guy lives they're sending officers because some BMW call cent…

As an American, I'm glad I'm not the only one :)

That said, I thought that car theft was all but gone in the US, at least for modern cars, whereas in Europe it still seems common. (Eg, if you follow international forums for newer car models, nobody in the US talks about theft anymore, but our European counterparts talk about these highly complex theft schemes). But then someone was posting about theft in Sacramento, so, I don't know.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#63

Post by matthewdgreen » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #58

jasoncartwright wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many suggestions for foiling this (including some interesting Tesla specific ones, like having the screen ask for a PIN), but the simplest is to just have the key not unlock the car unless a button is pressed. Not a massive inconvenience.

If you had a receiver with a nanosecond precision you can measure the distance to the key with enough accuracy that the relay attack doesn't work anymore. I don't know why manufacturers don't do that yet - I guess the parts necessary are still not available at scale yet? I personally just keep the keys in a metallic bag at night, blocks all signals perfectly.

It's coming in the next generation of keyless systems: https://www.3db-access.com/

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#64

Post by umvi » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

gagabity wrote: post #17

More surprising that the car has some call home feature that the owner doesn't seem to know about.

Many products have features the owners don't know about. Intel ME was a hidden feature of Intel processors for a while before anyone figured out it existed.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#65

Post by gok » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

How is cutting the line to a car's panic button unlike cutting a car's brake line? (that is, attempted murder)

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#66

Post by driverdan » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

jiveturkey wrote: post #45

drglitch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently gotten a new BMW (in USA), they give you a huge packet of about 30 pages explaining the BMW TeleService and the "SOS" button. They also make you sign a power of attorney-style doc giving them rights to notify police in case they believe your vehicle is in trouble and provide police/EMS with its exact location. Mercedes and Audi have similar systems, as do others via OnStar. This is one of few cases wh…

No, not entirely. Please give me the instructions on how to opt out. Whenever someone asks (which is rare), the forums are filled with replies like "why would you not want BMW to monitor you? are you a fraudster?" IOW the forums do not know how to opt out either. Everytime I take my 2016 in to service, I ask both sales and service to disable teleservices. They say they cannot. I then call BMW teleservices (every time…

Can you pull the SIM card?

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#67

Post by siliconwrath » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

gok wrote: post #65

How is cutting the line to a car's panic button unlike cutting a car's brake line? (that is, attempted murder)

I imagine they hoped to steal it before anything were to happen to the owner.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#68

Post by gst » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #27

Reading this article is honestly a bit of a domestic culture shock for me, where does this guy live in The Netherlands? Here in downtown Amsterdam we called the police because the rear window of someone's car had just been smashed outside our office, and the police's response was "Has anyone been hurt? Nope? Then we're not coming". Meanwhile, wherever this guy lives they're sending officers because some BMW call cent…

Several years ago someone tried to climb into our apartment window in Amsterdam (with another guy waiting with a motorbike as getaway vehicle on the street). He was standing on the windowsill and tried to break open the window (it was open but we had one of those locks that limits how far the window opens, so he didn't fit through the gap). They fled once we noticed them.

When we tried to report that incident to the police their first question was: Did they manage to get into the apartment? When we said no they told us there's nothing that they can do as the people who tried to break into our apartment weren't doing anything illegal.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#69

Post by akira2501 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

blensor wrote: post #52

giobox wrote: post #16

I've anecdotally heard a lot of stories about the relay/replay attacks on keyless ignition systems used in many BMW models and other cars as well. No need to smash the window at all in some cases. Remarkably simple attack in principle, and probably a nightmare to explain to your insurer given there will be no evidence of a break in. Makes you wonder if you should start storing the key in a metal/RF shielded box at ho…

That's actually not hard to explain to your insurance or the police at all. This happened to me 5 weeks ago. The car was parked directly in front of my entrance door and the key was basically on the other side of that door. The scene of my car not being where it was supposed to be was so surreal that I did not even realize it was missing the first time when I walked out the trash. I basically walked around an invisib…

> I was a bit worried that the box does not shield the signal enough.

They make "Faraday Bags" exactly for this purpose.

Re: A Dutch first: Ingenious BMW theft attempt

#70

Post by tempestn » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 8:09 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #60

In Sacramento car theft is a big problem. The scheme there is to steal a nice car, purchase a wrecked one at a lot (salvaged) for pennies, then swap the vins and serial numbers with the salvaged car then sell it. It works really well. So if you buy a used car in sacramento there is a %90 chance it has a salvaged title.

However large an issue it is, I'm pretty confident a majority of used cars sold in Sacramento are not stolen, let alone 90%. (Maybe you were just exaggerating.)