Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#141

Post by st26 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #92

gumby wrote: post #11

I don't understand why road taxes aren't used to pay for free public transport. The more people on public transport the more room for cars.

Free public transport is a can of worms; in general, free tends to attract walkers and bikers but not drivers, since price is not really how a car competes with public transport. And attracting walkers and bikers would probably be a negative. There's also a negative cycle where some walkers and bikers will switch because the free service is good enough, so the services become overcrowded, so more service is provided…

"Free" is really handy for keeping the service fast & on time though. Not required to be sure, but each rider digging for change takes time. My local bus rapid transit is nominally not-free, but tickets are not checked. It's impressive how fast it is, and that is part of why.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#142

Post by maxsilver » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

mcny wrote: post #79

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because outside of hyper dense cities roads are "public transit." Making them free to use (if you've already paid the costs associated with a car) has benefits to all that are large enough that increasing cost beyond what it takes to upkeep them at some subsistence level is not in our best interest (except in a few dense cities).

But the upkeep is expensive. One example: Jewel Avenue and Van Wyk Expressway intersection > New York State Department of Transportation Acting Commissioner Cathy Calhoun said the bridge is set to get $13 million in repairs to enhance safety for pedestrians, bicyclists and motorists. This is just one intersection and definitely not at the heart of the city. Jewel Avenue Q64 bus is probably symbolic of New York politi…

Road upkeep is really cheap. (Cheap enough that Dominoes Pizza can fix roads for fun as a publicity stunt). The numbers seem high, if you aren't used to transit budgets -- but by those comparisons, roads are really cheap.

A $13 million bridge repair sounds expensive. But to replace that bridge with a BRT line (as one example) has an initial upfront cost of ~$40 million, and has a higher per-day maintenance cost too. To replace that bridge with a real subway line (which is probably what NYC would need to best serve riders) could easily be $160 million or higher.

Roads are the cheapest way to provide public transportation. Not necessarily the best way, but always the cheapest way.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#143

Post by saosebastiao » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

thousandautumns wrote: post #108

tallanvor wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mormons are the kindest There is nothing kind about their treatment of the LGBT population in general, and LGBT youth in particular. And if they were really that good at taking care of each other, I don't think that Utah would rank 5th in the nation for adolescent suicides (children 15 - 19 years) with a per capita suicide rate more than double the national average.* They really do like to put on a good face, but t…

I won’t disagree that Mormons still have a ways to go regarding relations with the LGBT community, but if you have follow the Mormon church at all you’ve seen lots of progress in the last 10 years which continues to be made. As for the suicide rate, you are making very careless and dangerous assumptions. Yes, it’s higher than most other areas. The reason for why is still very much unknown, and could be attributed in…

Handwavy dismissals from Mormons about the high suicide rate all have one thing in common: they may explain higher than average baselibe levels, but they don't explain the growth. It is certainly plausible, and as empirical understandings improve, Mormonism is certainly being honed in on as a significant factor.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10798286

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#144

Post by blitmap » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

dgzl wrote: post #121

hueving wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Only if you buy the strawmen of politics in the US of there being two 'sides' with everyone neatly falling into place on a pathetic line. The further you get away from the shithole that is the US federal government, the more this becomes apparent. The things each 'side' is supposed to…

I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.

Silver lining: We're united against those other people, lol. By politicians encouraging a divided, polarized atmosphere they've created a largely 2-party system (instead of a many-party system).

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#145

Post by KallDrexx » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #120

Mbioguy wrote: post #6

A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Utah is an interesting place. The geography of the Wasatch Front lends itself to public transit in ways that less geographically-constrained places do not. The region is mostly a north-south corridor, with occasional off-shoots to the side, which is how the transit network has developed…

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify. By the…

> By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it.

That's a pretty laughable statement. Tons of local government (town, city, state) projects are just as much (or more) over budget with massive special interest pandering as well. The Federal government is not unique in this aspect.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#146

Post by DamnInteresting » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

Mbioguy wrote: post #6

A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Utah is an interesting place. The geography of the Wasatch Front lends itself to public transit in ways that less geographically-constrained places do not. The region is mostly a north-south corridor, with occasional off-shoots to the side, which is how the transit network has developed…

> Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually.

In Orem (Utah County) the city is building dedicated bus lanes in the center of University Parkway; my guess is that this is a precursor to Trax rails down the line (so to speak).

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#147

Post by swebs » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

dgzl wrote: post #121

hueving wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Only if you buy the strawmen of politics in the US of there being two 'sides' with everyone neatly falling into place on a pathetic line. The further you get away from the shithole that is the US federal government, the more this becomes apparent. The things each 'side' is supposed to…

I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.

I'd say it's more due to human nature to break complicated issues down to one dimension. Cameras have megapixels, computers have Flops, countries have some sort of "index" depending on what facet you're looking at, and politics has a single left/right value. Of course it's not very accurate, but that's the idea that's easiest to consume, and thus the one that propagates the most.

The 2-dimensional Political Compass is a huge improvement, but still isn't perfect. Reality is more complex and would require an N-dimensional political matrix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#148

Post by ptero » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

KallDrexx wrote: post #145

ptero wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify. By the…

> By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster panderin…

The fact that Federal government is not unique in wasting money is still not a reason to throw a ton of new money at it.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#149

Post by ptero » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

cbluth wrote: post #140

ptero wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify. By the…

> if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests I think you described every government project to date.

And my point is that communities can do better. Small communities such as condo complexes collect and use money (often after a good yellout) for things that residents want (walkways, tennis courts, pools, shuttle buses, etc.) without mega waste.

The key property of this is that the costs are clear and must be paid directly by those who voted for a new functionality. LDS may be the glue that allows something similar at the city/state level in Utah.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#150

Post by justdeleteKanab » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #147

dgzl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.

I'd say it's more due to human nature to break complicated issues down to one dimension. Cameras have megapixels, computers have Flops, countries have some sort of "index" depending on what facet you're looking at, and politics has a single left/right value. Of course it's not very accurate, but that's the idea that's easiest to consume, and thus the one that propagates the most. The 2-dimensional Political Compass i…

http://birdsbeforethestorm.net/2016/10/lower-leftism-expandi...

^-- the most intriguing take on the political compass I've ever seen, albeit one with its own biases and issues (I'd replace feudalism with 'early human or tribal societies'). The main point was that it expanded beyond a strictly US view and I found the additional concept lines useful (Democracy line, inequality line, market line). It still runs into the same trouble trying to compress everything down into two dimensions does. Ideologies can end up next to each other that aren't very similar, which the end of the blog post acknowledged.